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Old 09-03-2009, 11:08 AM   #29
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Andy, with absolute all due respect, you're right, it is idealistic of you. Unfortunately, we live in a world where people are greedy, vindictive and just plain nasty, and sometimes those people end up being your competition. While I'm all for capitalism and competition, people need to adhere to ethics....that's in an an ideal world.

Since we don't live in that ideal world, SEAL Team Two's motto comes to mind: Scindite Jugula Eorum! Translation: Rip their throats out!

I know, I know, I'm the military neanderthal, who's hell-bent on taking a 3 pound sledgehammer to a fly, but damnit sometimes that fly is just really annoying. I've never been a pacifist (I'm not saying you are), so I don't understand the concept of turning the other cheek. My father, a Viet Nam vet, taught me that, if someone hits you, you hit them back. If you are unable to hit them back, due to size, you grab something to hit them with.

My point in this diatribe is that, if the WBCCI forum used your copyrighted material, call the WBCCI and make them aware of it. If your nature isn't confrontation, then be flattered that someone thought enough of your material to steal it and use it as his own.
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:30 AM   #30
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Roger is right we are very good friends....now make sure that check keeps coming Rog.

It is idealistic to believe that ethics as we each see it would be universally good. As Andy pointed out, working together isn't all that simple, and it's not limited to forums either. Many years ago, we had a co-op here at work for technology. It was a great idea, but in reality, many folks wanted different directions. Kinda similar to what I understand happened when a few disgruntled Airstream workers went out and built Airstream look alikes under the Avion nameplate.

Bottom line, Roger knows my feelings toward WBCCI and those around here more painfully than the newbies, so I'll spare you my flamethrower on the subject as I have no horse in this race as I am not currently a member. Would I like WBCCI to disappear? Yea, if it stays the way it is, but if it can change, then I would be happy to reconsider that decision. Who knows, perhaps they finally got it and this is but the first shot over the bow. Maybe it's a futile last ditch effort to stop the bleeding...dunno and don't really care. But if they are willing to bend, I can also meet half way, so I'll support both this site and the other until I find either I further don't agree with the political structure or direction. In the end, I still have my Airstream, my heath and a lot of Interstate to travel.

As for our forum gatherings, Roger is right, but if you really peel the onion back a few layers you'll find that Airforums found a niche because the old WBCCI "establishment" wasn't willing to be flexible. That doesn't mean that we haven't adopted bits and pieces of DNA....you can't simply say, well, we aren't formal, so the forum rally isn't somewhat getting inside WBCCI turf. Clearly it has, as a number of folks here posted so, myself being one of them. I clearly like the Airforums gatherings as it fits my lifestyle. Some OTOH may disagree and like the post WW2 digs, thats cool too. When the Social Knowledge starts to financially (though various means) support these rallies, it is in fact a somewhat forum sponsored event, which is very distant to WBCCI, but it still does take some folks like me further away from WBCCI...so in a very odd and slight way, yes we do infringe on WBCCI too (though I actually had to beat these words out of me given my feelings toward WBCCI).
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:33 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
I'm going to disagree on a point... saying a forum is successful because of great moderation is like saying there's no crime because a community has a great police force. It may "feel" right, but it really isn't true.

Airforums is successful because of its community. The members are knowledge, prolific in writing and often have something interesting or valuable to say. How many people come here and say, "Wow... look at the moderating here." This is the single best place to come for information on Airstreams including vintage renovations. Airstream devotees are passionate. Even if the Airforums didn't accept a single new post, it would still get heavy traffic as a web resource.
...

Ladies and gentlemen, the greatness of this forum is due to you.
Yes ... and un-yes.
Take a look at the usenet groups, alt.airstream if you like, or any of a dozen others that were going like mad 15 years ago. To my knowledge only a couple of the comp.lang groups survive as viable groups; trolls sprouted up and fouled many others.
Godwin's Law is the rule on unmoderated forums, and gentle moderation, like effective IT or well implemented embedded systems are transparent.

In other words, people congregate at a well moderated community because the moderation is effective and not heavy handed.

In the waning weeks of the penultimate WBCCI forums, the moderation became very stiff, with thinly veiled threats and needlessly deleted posts.

The "new" wbcci forum appears to have one or at best two moderators, and this presents another problem. Moderation, when done primarily by one of the principals involved, tends not to be transluscent. Think of an over-eager teenager on a date with the prom queen. Also, the owners, when doing the bulk of the moderation, tend to take things a little personally which is off-putting to the casual visitor.

Obviously lots of things are necessary: software, a well defined common interest area, etc. But all of it will wreck without the gentle, firm, almost subliminal voice deftly pushing things back on track and reminding us to play nice.
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:37 AM   #32
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I'm reminded that the thousand mile journey starts with one step. I am sure this forum also didn't have dozens of mods at first either.

I say cut the folks some slack. It'll either work or it won't. Either way it will most likely not effect operations here and if by chance it does, well, like Airstream said, we're up to the challenge of making Lexus quality RVs.....we can also aspire further if we so desired. That's the beauty of capitalism and free will, no one's business plans are being suppressed, unless of course you break the law.....
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:23 PM   #33
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I have decided to totally ignore the new WBCCI forum. The act of putting the forum on a vendor-owned site is totally wrong, as is the fact that moderation will, without a doubt, be biased.

The old WBCCI forum never really got off the launching pad. I don't expect the new forum to do a bit better. Between here and SAVEWALLY, I have access to all of the Airstream world that I need.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:16 PM   #34
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I have posted here enough that everyone know my feelings about WBCCI (the orginzation). When you are the best, people try to copy and be like the best so Andy R I guess we can figure what that means to (us) Airforums.
It's also amazing to me that at a (as it were) airforums rally (which can't happen cause there is no insurance) around the camp fire those 5 letters are never mentioned. There is to my knowleadge no discussion of that group. We are just there fer the fun and enjoyment of being together, which is what its all about.
As far a moderation here.I personally have never been moderated or edited.I even ask one mod what happen to my posts,that mod checked the input and found none. With that mods help I was able to correct my error. When ever I have ask for help,I have always gotten it .
THANKS MOD's
AIRFORUMS PEOPLE let's just keep postin and campin and forget about what others say or do.
We will surivive.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:17 PM   #35
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The Internet is not terribly different than "real life." The quality of the local police department is not the primary determinant of a community's success or failure. Yes, utter lawlessness can destroy a community. So can poor schools, terrible roads, a nasty climate, a failing local economy or just lousy luck. Correlation is not causation.

Gentle moderation can play a role in deterring the hooligans who delight only in vandalizing the public square... but it is no substitute for a civil, thoughtful, law abiding citizenry. Great citizens make for a great community. Great guards make for a great prison.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:52 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
The Internet is not terribly different than "real life." The quality of the local police department is not the primary determinant of a community's success or failure. Yes, utter lawlessness can destroy a community. So can poor schools, terrible roads, a nasty climate, a failing local economy or just lousy luck. Correlation is not causation.

Gentle moderation can play a role in deterring the hooligans who delight only in vandalizing the public square... but it is no substitute for a civil, thoughtful, law abiding citizenry. Great citizens make for a great community. Great guards make for a great prison.
Well said!

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Old 09-03-2009, 05:59 PM   #37
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:37 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT View Post
For the benefit of those that had been keeping pace with this thread since yesterday...

Post# 11 spent the night (and most of the day) in quarantine, being reviewed. It's back online now, in its rightful place (in line), unedited, and just might provide a real clue as to the WHY aspect of all of this...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/743210-post11.html

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I guess I lack the "inside baseball" knowledge of the WBCCI and/or Aiforums necessary to understand the explanation.

Again, I wish the WBCCI well if only because it seems very important to some people who seem rather nice. Back "in the day" the Club seemed to do some nifty things. I would love to do a Cairo-to-Capetown run with our Overlander and "Ed." I mean... how cool would a vintage trailer/vintage tow vehicle run across the Dark Continent be?

I guess I also get a little frustrated when old organizations act in old ways. I get weary of "management speak," "group think" and the failure by so many people and groups to adapt. It's a little sad to see local service organizations fade away because they just can't quite adjust to doing things a different way. As I have observed before, we live in an era where everything "we know as true" may work against us because the world has changed. Perhaps that is the way it has always been. Ah, well, the great thing is that as long as we enjoy freedom... progress will happen, even if slowly than some of us might like.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:47 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT View Post
For the benefit of those that had been keeping pace with this thread since yesterday...

Post# 11 spent the night (and most of the day) in quarantine, being reviewed. It's back online now, in its rightful place (in line), unedited, and just might provide a real clue as to the WHY aspect of all of this...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/743210-post11.html

__
And the post that I made last night has been pulled without even a PM to me stating why.

Could it be because this post violates at least two of the forum rules and I asked why the original poster had not be kicked off the forum?

Oh ya, when you are the owner rules do not apply to you.

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Old 09-03-2009, 06:56 PM   #40
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Right on, Leo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT View Post
My best guess would be that if the operator of that site has been banned from operating here, that the Devil's Advocate scenario holds true, and that club leadership knows nothing about it...

My guess would be that could likely be where ALL of that drive comes from and management has no clue as to what the background really is. What do you think?

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Leo,

I think you're exactly right. The executive committee doesn't participate in forums and thinks they're a passing fad. Consequently they've turned the WBCCI hen house over to the fox and have no idea what damage he's doing to the WBCCI.

Think about it--if a potential member, who knows nothing about the WBCCI, clicks on a "WBCCI" link on the Airstream, Inc. home page, he has a better than even chance of linking to a commercial web site, vintage-airstream dot com, where the first thing he will see is an ad for the Good Sam club! Disgusting, but there's not much us ordinary WBCCI members can do about it.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:03 PM   #41
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Could it be because this post violates at least two of the forum rules and I asked why the original poster had not be kicked off the forum?
You answered your own question.
Quote:
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Oh ya, when you are the owner rules do not apply to you.
I have to follow the rules too! If not the other mods/admins will whip me back into place.


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Old 09-08-2009, 11:26 PM   #42
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Funny, but when I read this snippit from 65GT and click the link - it doesn't go to the NEW club forums, it goes to used trailer flipper Greg Gibson's sales web site!
Quote:
Does any of that sound like CLUB verbage? I don't think so. More melding? Try each of the FOUR separate links in the upper right hand corner of the home page, and then for the biggest meld of all try and place an ad at your very own CLUB forum, and see what happens? Go ahead, click on it...

forum.wbcci.org archive index.php f-62.html

Now go back and take a good look at that HUGE BANNER AD down the left-hand side of that CLUB homepage. Unlike the other income generating banner ads, this one appears to be part and parcel to that CLUB site. You know, the banner ad that looks like the CLUB is in the business of selling used Airstreams. Sure looks like that way at first glance, doesn't it?
Could that be an indication who REALLY owns those forums??? Does WBCCI REALLY approve of the redirection of posts to Gibson's commercial web site?
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