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Old 06-06-2011, 07:42 AM   #1093
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Forrest, not sure what point you're trying to make the Revision was NOT changed, it was published to the members without changes.

Your allegation that Norm owns this committee is way off base.


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Old 06-06-2011, 07:52 AM   #1094
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Time for an apology

A question for the “Special Revision Committee” about the New Constitution and what has happened over the past 8-10 months and the back and forth questions, comments, answers from people that questioned how and why, who and what, etc…. many were called, Naysayers, Trouble Makers, Not having the best interest of the club in hand, etc…

For those on the Special Committee, many WBCCI members are not going to say “I Told You So” though they may like too. But some do think these members of the WBCCI that tried to give the Committee Members insight based on past experience in dealing with the IBT/EC7 and how things are done by them to be called, Naysayers, Trouble Makers, Not having the best interest of the club in hand, etc… by some Committee members. These WBCCI members are due an “apology”.

One can only hope this “apology” will happen in light of how the recent events have played out almost exactly like many of the so called “Naysayers” said it would.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:25 AM   #1095
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Now back to our regularly scheduled programming!

The very idea that anyone needs to run a club like an incorporated town is just the sort of thing that keeps people from joining or more to the point, staying. The more it sounds like work and politics the less attractive it is to the majority of potential members. The negative hype which has been created by this fiasco has reverberated throught the Airstream community.
Over the last week at Alumapaloozer we saw many friends who were no longer active WBCCI members and even more amazing was the number who will never consider it! If the strategy of the leadership was to disenfranchize Airstream owners to win a vote to make WBCCI an all makes club they have been successful. WBCCI has become a dirty word in the Airstream community of people we talked to! It's death nell has been struck, soon to be only a memory of great caravans in history.
The next major event will be discussion about whole units turning in their charters in favor of locally managed groups of Airstream friends. GOOD JOB to the leadership for making the kind of club only the elite MOHO owners can enjoy!

There was talk of shutting down this thread but I think we are really on the verge of shutting down the entire WBCCI forum as it no longer has any relavence to a forum of Airstream Ownwers!
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:11 AM   #1096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Forrest, not sure what point you're trying to make the Revision was NOT changed, it was published to the members without changes.

Your allegation that Norm owns this committee is way off base.


.
You're right, you don't get the point that is being made. You never have.
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:15 AM   #1097
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Folks, please avoid any personal attacks against anybody, whether members of these forums or not. Any such attack is a violation of our "be nice" policy and will not be tolerated.

Lynn
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:31 AM   #1098
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I gotta say I find the moderation ambiguous. I don't ever see these personal attacks. Will the moderators please be specific in tutoring us as to what has broken the be nice rule, which line is considered an attack, a rant, etc., because I don't see any infractions of the forums rules and don't appear to be getting any smarter despite the generous amount of coaching. I am being sincere in my request, and not the first I have made it. This is a recurring issue and many may be unsure of what is not acceptable. There also were a myriad of moderator concerns expressed in advance of posts which I also find unusual from a neutral moderation standpoint and whether posters have become done with the thread they are active in and it needing to be locked down. Perhaps this is out of line but I feel a lack of respect in the amount and method of control being lavished upon the WBCCI subjects. I don't feel like a lawbreaker and disrespectful person but am told we are repeatedly on the basis of our opinions posted here. Could moderators please be more direct and less conceptual and aggravated and subjective in their counsel, actually based on how we are speaking inappropraiately and not about the subject matter with any apparent bias.
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:47 AM   #1099
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If you disagree with someone and express that disagreement, that is often seen as sn infraction. The problem with heavy moderation is, it is always subjective never objective.
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:50 AM   #1100
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Perhaps you have just explained why a club politics thread is nearly impossible to not run awry from when it involves the expression of opposites and disagreements for its very premise. I had started a thread about WBCCI needing its own members' forum and asked of the electronic committee and officers involved and cited the problems of moderation and that Air Forums was not the appropriate venue or mutually beneficial for mods or members but it was removed. The issue is REAL and should be addressed and this as said before is currently the only game in town for WBCCIers and thus my thread was pertinent and timely and should be regarded seriously as an option for club discussion.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:07 AM   #1101
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Quote:
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Folks, please avoid any personal attacks against anybody, whether members of these forums or not. Any such attack is a violation of our "be nice" policy and will not be tolerated.

Lynn
It seems to me that "attacking" (questioning or challenging or countering) someone's argument, logic or rationalization should be allowed, and that the moderator should be able to distinguish between that and a personal attack. A personal attack would be name calling, or getting into some aspect of their private life that has no bearing on the argument.

Obviously the line between has been crossed a number of times, and it is understandable if the mods are a bit wary.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:10 AM   #1102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
I gotta say I find the moderation ambiguous. I don't ever see these personal attacks. Will the moderators please be specific in tutoring us as to what has broken the be nice rule, which line is considered an attack, a rant, etc., because I don't see any infractions of the forums rules and don't appear to be getting any smarter despite the generous amount of coaching.
I agree, some of the posts that should be edited aren't.

It also depends who the poster is, some get away with more that others.

Lastly all the mods have different opinions on what is objectionable, but they never say why.

We are all adults state the objection via PM.


Bottom line here IMO is we need a Members only forum to discuss member business.

For the most part IMO it is the non members that stir the pot and have caused the interruption of debate.

Would Airforums consider this, you folks do it for units why not the club?


.
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:32 PM   #1103
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A members only forum needs to be on a WBCCI controlled site, not on a privately owned site.

Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I agree, some of the posts that should be edited aren't.

It also depends who the poster is, some get away with more that others.

Lastly all the mods have different opinions on what is objectionable, but they never say why.

We are all adults state the objection via PM.


Bottom line here IMO is we need a Members only forum to discuss member business.

For the most part IMO it is the non members that stir the pot and have caused the interruption of debate.

Would Airforums consider this, you folks do it for units why not the club?


.
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:36 PM   #1104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
I gotta say I find the moderation ambiguous. I don't ever see these personal attacks. Will the moderators please be specific in tutoring us as to what has broken the be nice rule, which line is considered an attack, a rant, etc., because I don't see any infractions of the forums rules and don't appear to be getting any smarter despite the generous amount of coaching. I am being sincere in my request, and not the first I have made it. This is a recurring issue and many may be unsure of what is not acceptable. There also were a myriad of moderator concerns expressed in advance of posts which I also find unusual from a neutral moderation standpoint and whether posters have become done with the thread they are active in and it needing to be locked down. Perhaps this is out of line but I feel a lack of respect in the amount and method of control being lavished upon the WBCCI subjects. I don't feel like a lawbreaker and disrespectful person but am told we are repeatedly on the basis of our opinions posted here. Could moderators please be more direct and less conceptual and aggravated and subjective in their counsel, actually based on how we are speaking inappropraiately and not about the subject matter with any apparent bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
It seems to me that "attacking" (questioning or challenging or countering) someone's argument, logic or rationalization should be allowed, and that the moderator should be able to distinguish between that and a personal attack. A personal attack would be name calling, or getting into some aspect of their private life that has no bearing on the argument.

Obviously the line between has been crossed a number of times, and it is understandable if the mods are a bit wary.
Carol, Forrest,

You bring up valid points. We try to apply moderation light handed and several recent posts by the staff were geared more towards trying to keep things from becoming personal rather than letting things run their respective course. As posted in the June 3rd re-opening thread our intent is to be light handed.

We're still fine tuning ourselves to the thread direction and experiencing a few bumps of our own. What we've seen posted since re-opening the thread is appropriate. We'll do our best to be "more direct" and "less conceptual".

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I agree, some of the posts that should be edited aren't.

It also depends who the poster is, some get away with more that others.

Lastly all the mods have different opinions on what is objectionable, but they never say why.

We are all adults state the objection via PM.


Bottom line here IMO is we need a Members only forum to discuss member business.

For the most part IMO it is the non members that stir the pot and have caused the interruption of debate.

Would Airforums consider this, you folks do it for units why not the club?


.
Bob,

We have over 51,000 members and currently average over 6,400 visitors per day. This is a lot traffic for a staff of 18 volunteers.

We're not saying that we are perfect and don't make mistakes, but we're not in the business of editing posts. A post stands on its own, good, or bad, and PM's are sent when a post, or posts are pulled.

We do our best to make sure everyone here is treated with the same degree of respect and professionalism. Staff decisions are not made individually, but as a team.

The WBBCI forum is important to us all and we want you all to have a site where dialog and idea exchange can take place.

To All: We value your participation and will continue working to make airforums an enjoyable place for you to visit and participate. As always, feel free to contact any site team member if we can be of assistance.

On behalf of the Site Team
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:39 PM   #1105
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Why?

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A members only forum needs to be on a WBCCI controlled site, not on a privately owned site.
Fine, if WBCCI wants to do that. After the last experience, it is not a priority of the new electronic communications committee.

Meanwhile, private forums on Airforums seem to work pretty well.
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Old 06-06-2011, 01:13 PM   #1106
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To put a post script on Kevin245's post above and to answer the why question above.

This website was not created for the WBCCI club or any club for that matter. This site was created to exchange thoughts, ideas and experiences related to the Airstream product. The WBCCI club is part of that and club members and others interesteed in the club has taken advantage of the free offereing here! This has also elevated the passionate discussion to a level that many find objectionable. And when 10 of the last 20 reported threads by the user base of this website reports issues regarding the WBCCI club and the mod team spends more than 50% time with actions regarding the same topic we as the mod team need to make some changes. The behavior in posting for this sole topic isn't to a standard consistant to the other 73,000 threads and almost a million posts.

So the general shot across the bow for the club is ...... if you continue to post the way it has been, several things will occur. Some users will find their usage here restricted and the topic in general will go the way religion and politics topics have gone on this website.

We would recommed the club spend some money and create their own website. Or at least deal with their own concerns and issues away from this website. I know this has done in the past with less than desirable results. And we don't want the less than desirable results here either.

You make the changes or the changes will be made for you.

>>>>>>>Action
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