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Old 05-24-2011, 10:49 AM   #953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets

Ps: I would like to commend Matt from GA for taking the time with his unit to explore their options and propose amendments. This was supposed to be done by all units rather than simply saying no to 18 Articles.

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As I mentioned previously, my unit voted unanimously for me to express their intent with THEIR votes. I believe I am obligated to do so.

The committee that developed the change had a very difficult task. Just because we want to alter it, doesn't mean we aren't appreciative of the committee and the IP for all their hard work.

I hope posting here will help communicate our change. I have asked for guidance from Jackson Center on the method of submittal. I hope to have it in a form which can be accepted and approved.
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Old 05-24-2011, 11:05 AM   #954
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unofficial worksheet

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Originally Posted by wkerfoot View Post
Can you post the unofficial worksheet here, or do we have to ask for it one at a time?

Bill
It will not upload it exceeds the allowable limit.

But here's the intro

The following is a sample worksheet to assist you in preparing your Delegate. The sample worksheet shows the correct revision wording for each article proposal. You need to mark your vote to approve each of the proposed revisions OR if you wish to make a proposed amendment to any of the articles you may do so. Please use the column provided to the right of the article to which you would like to propose an amendment. Any proposed amendments which are submitted with the final ballot will require an additional ballot and an additional vote by the membership. Any amendments will be submitted at the International Rally by the unit representative in accordance with the following procedures:
1) Proposed amendments have to be in writing. There needs to be four (4) copies, one for the Presiding Officer, one for the Parliamentarian, one for the Computer Services for display on the screen so that the other Delegates can see it, and one for the person making the amendment. The original will go to the International Recording Secretary for the records.
2) Amendment forms and copying equipment will be available in the Office at the International Rally and during the Delegates Meeting.
3) The Parliamentarian will be available in the Office if any Delegate would like to check on the wording and form to present their amendment appropriately.
4) If possible, any proposed amendments should be given to the International Recording Secretary before the Delegates Meeting. She will be in the Office as soon as it is open. That way the Presiding Officer will be aware that a Delegate wants to propose an amendment; and, he will be sure to recognize the Delegate who wants to make an amendment. The Delegates have the right to make amendments from the floor; but, because they need to be in writing and copies need to be made, this could take some time.
5) Each proposed amendment will be voted on by "aye" and "no" or a show of hands, or a standing count or whatever is needed.
6) A majority adopts an amendment.
7) After all the sections of the Proposed Revision have been discussed and any amendments voted on, the entire document, as amended, will be opened for any further amendments that the Delegates want to make.
8) When there are no further amendments, the proposed Revision, as amended, will be voted on by a Roll Call Vote with 2/3 needed for adoption.
9) One thing to keep in mind is that the current Constitution is NOT open for amendment during this process. Also, the proposed Revision is NOT an amendment of the current Constitution. If any Delegate wants to have any of the wording from the current Constitution in the proposed Revision, the Delegate will need to propose that wording as an amendment to the Revision. As with any other amendment, it will need to be adopted by the Delegates before it becomes part of the proposed Revision.



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Old 05-24-2011, 11:19 AM   #955
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Bob,

Please send the worksheet to me.

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Old 05-24-2011, 11:35 AM   #956
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It would cost nothing to send the complete form to all the members via Constant Contact broadcast email. We pay a monthly fee for the service of unlimited emails. Ask Fred or Cindy to do it. You have already sent out three postings via Constant Contact, so you know it can be done.

It would seem the procedure is straight forward and logical, but will take a lot of time to go through all 18 sections with likely up to five amendments to each section to be considered. The part with the show of hand or by voice is not 1m 1v friendly or democratic, as some delegates are representing 20 times as many members as delegates from smaller units. The smaller units would unfairly have too great a voice in the decisions made.

To be fair, and conform with Robert's Rules of Order, we would need to have a roll call vote on each amendment on each section. That means we might require up to 90 roll call votes. The average roll call vote times I have witnessed in my many participations in the delegates meeting, exceed 20 minutes. So even without the time it takes to introduce each amendment and have a meaningful discussion could easily exceed 30 hours.

Somehow, I think this is not a viable option.
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Old 05-24-2011, 11:46 AM   #957
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Originally Posted by dwightdi View Post
It would cost nothing to send the complete form to all the members via Constant Contact broadcast email. We pay a monthly fee for the service of unlimited emails. Ask Fred or Cindy to do it. You have already sent out three postings via Constant Contact, so you know it can be done.
yep, but that is NOT all the members only 60%, many declined using emails.

Quote:
It would seem the procedure is straight forward and logical, but will take a lot of time to go through all 18 sections with likely up to five amendments to each section to be considered. The part with the show of hand or by voice is not 1m 1v friendly or democratic, as some delegates are representing 20 times as many members as delegates from smaller units. The smaller units would unfairly have too great a voice in the decisions made.
yep, that's another reason the delegate system sucks, how about units that don't send a delegate?????

Quote:
To be fair, and conform with Robert's Rules of Order, we would need to have a roll call vote on each amendment on each section.
Absolutely incorrect!

Quote:
So even without the time it takes to introduce each amendment and have a meaningful discussion could easily exceed 30 hours.
yep, that's why up to 3 days is set aside to do it.



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Old 05-24-2011, 02:23 PM   #958
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60% of the members notified and informed is better than 1% of the members informed, which is the number of concerned members that follow the threads here. Why are you opposed to educating the membership. Do you have something to hide?

The current delegates's meeting always uses a roll call vote on any controversial topic and therefore there is IM IV representation. The roll call vote was used to put an end to the misadventures of the IBT twice in the last 5 years. The club is a representative democracy with 1m 1V (but excludes the MALs from voting). The MALS could fix that themselves, if the chose to do so. For $1 per year they could join WDCU or any one of the other internet units and save themselves $19 per year and have the right to vote, if they chose to do so. Over 400 of them have not chosen to do so. That must mean they think their vote would be meaningless. Since there is only one candidate worthy (in the eyes of the 3 person nominating committee), of running for any office, they may be right.

To call for a shouting match to see which amendments to each section are worthy of being incorporated is not democratic. Certainly not !M!V by any stretch.

The 30 hour delegates meeting I calculated would actually be much longer, if you included any meaningful discussion. To be run properly we would have to find a constitutional lawyer or at least a trained parliamentian to be our delegate. We do not have that many qualified people in all the units. Our unit held a discussion for 2 hours and only a very few people wanted to continue the conversation and instead decided to vote the whole thing down as a bad piece of work which would likely causes the club to jump from the frying pan into the fire. It is a lose lose proposal.
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Old 05-24-2011, 03:52 PM   #959
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Dwight you're are just to closed minded to have a meaningful exchange of ideas.

Having said that, you need to read RONR, you are incorrect about roll call voting.

If you think we have 1M1V with our delegate system I have a bridge for sale.


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Old 05-24-2011, 05:08 PM   #960
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Each Delegate (representative) is given the power to cast one vote for each of the members he represents. That is one member one vote. The Mal "no vote" problem can be easily solved within the current constitution or by the MALS themselves as above. I have read Roberts Rules and most likely understand them better than you.

Why don't you admit it. Norm has outsmarted you. He is a better poker and chess master than you and you put in a lot of work for no gain. The EC 5 or 7 will continue to rule the roost. It is checkmate for you. Your logic is inconsistent and not convincing.
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:43 PM   #961
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Consider our change. Keep delegate voting. Offer MAL voting. Reduce the size of the IBT and the votes of the EC. And eliminate the "recommended" slate.

It could be vote it in in June!
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:47 PM   #962
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or,
or, another committee could be formed to study the issue. They could report their findings at the Mid Winter meetings.
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Old 05-24-2011, 06:09 PM   #963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightdi View Post
Each Delegate (representative) is given the power to cast one vote for each of the members he represents. I have read Roberts Rules and most likely understand them better than you.
Well then you should enlighten all of us by directing us to the page(s) in RONR that describes that seriatim vote and the power to cast one vote for each member he/she represents.

This was provided by our Parliamentarian, I guess you understand the Rules better than her also?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post

5) Each proposed amendment will be voted on by "aye" and "no" or a show of hands, or a standing count or whatever is needed.
6) A majority adopts an amendment.
7) After all the sections of the Proposed Revision have been discussed and any amendments voted on, the entire document, as amended, will be opened for any further amendments that the Delegates want to make.
8) When there are no further amendments, the proposed Revision, as amended, will be voted on by a Roll Call Vote with 2/3 needed for adoption.
The vote you're confused with is #8


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Old 05-24-2011, 06:32 PM   #964
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What I was referring to as a "shouting match" of un- equals in the "aye and ney" voting that is step 5, where the voices of the smaller units will over rule the voices of the larger groups of members in larger units. Only those ideas that survive this "shouting match" will be advanced to be really voted on by a roll vote in step 8.

The Region 5 units have cast their votes not to affirm the new constitution, as it has been published. We will have to see if there can be enough amendments to it so it can become acceptable to 2/3 of the members. From what I see, that is unlikely.
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Old 05-24-2011, 07:25 PM   #965
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The WBCCI division of RONR, Inc.?

Can anybody tell me exactly when the WBCCI became a wholly owned subsidiary of Roberts Rules of Order, Newly Revised, Inc.?

In the May Blue Beret, the membership chairman reports that 1,302 members declined to renew their memberships last year, of whom 226 have subsequently renewed.

But that's not important. . . what's important is the page number of Roberts Rules of Order, Newly Revised citing the particular parliamentary nuance upon which our crafty argument is based.

Heaven help the WBCCI.
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Old 05-24-2011, 07:40 PM   #966
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