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Old 05-06-2011, 10:39 AM   #813
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WBCCI Members,

The following information, from the Constitution Revision Committee, is to address various questions about the proposed Revised WBCCI Constitution.

What is a Revised Constitution?
1. It is NOT an amendment of the current Constitution.
2. It IS proposed extensive changes to the Constitution that are scattered throughout and make this an entirely NEW Constitution. This is the definition that is stated on page 575 of the WBCCI Parliamentary Authority, Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised current edition (RONR).
3. This proposed Revised Constitution, following the current Constitution rules, will be presented by the International President to the Delegates for their consideration. It was developed by a Special Committee created by the Executive Committee and appointed by the President following RONR, page 549. This Special committee and the Executive Committee refined this proposed Revision, which is the document with the line numbers.

How will the Delegates discuss the proposed Revision?
1) Each Article and Section will be opened for discussion and amendment, one at a time in order.
2) Any Delegate can offer an amendment (change) to the part being discussed.
3) Amendments need to be in writing. (More on amendments in a following question)
4) After all the sections are discussed and voted on, the entire document as amended will be opened for a final discussion and amendment. After that is completed, the final vote will be taken on the Revision.

HOW IS THE PROPOSED CONSTITUTION ADOPTED/REJECTED?
1. Following RONR page 553, the vote required to adopt a proposed Revision as amended is the same as that required to amend the current Constitution. For WBCCI that is 2/3 by a roll call vote.
2. The current Constitution remains in effect until a proposed Revised Constitution is adopted. If adopted, the Revised Constitution immediately becomes effective as the Constitution.
3. However, there may be some parts that require time to implement, or transition to, so some provisions have to be made for this transition. These provisions are called "provisos".
4. Since the adopted Constitution takes effect immediately, the provisos need to be adopted prior to the adoption of the Constitution or as "attached provisos".
5. The provisos are not a part of the Constitution; and, as soon as they are fulfilled, they are no longer attached.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO MAKE AN AMENDMENT?
1) Proposed amendments have to be in writing. There needs to be four (4) copies, one for the Presiding Officer, one for the Parliamentarian, one for the Computer Services for display on the screen so that the other Delegates can see it, and one for the person making the amendment. The original will go to the International Recording Secretary for the records.

2) Amendment forms and copying equipment will be available in the Office at the International Rally and during the Delegates Meeting.

3) The Parliamentarian will be available in the Office if any Delegate would like to check on the wording and form to present their amendment appropriately.

4) If possible, any proposed amendments should be given to the International Recording Secretary before the Delegates Meeting. She will be in the Office as soon as it is open. That way the Presiding Officer will be aware that a Delegate wants to propose an amendment; and, he will be sure to recognize the Delegate who wants to make an amendment. The Delegates have the right to make amendments from the floor; but, because they need to be in writing and copies need to be made, this could take some time.

5) Each proposed amendment will be voted on by "aye" and "no" or a show of hands, or a standing count or whatever is needed.

6) A majority adopts an amendment.

7) After all the sections of the Proposed Revision have been discussed and any amendments voted on, the entire document, as amended, will be opened for any further amendments that the Delegates want to make.

8) When there are no further amendments, the proposed Revision, as amended, will be voted on by a Roll Call Vote with 2/3 needed for adoption.

9) One thing to keep in mind is that the current Constitution is NOT open for amendment during this process. Also, the proposed Revision is NOT an amendment of the current Constitution. If any Delegate wants to have any of the wording from the current Constitution in the proposed Revision, the Delegate will need to propose that wording as an amendment to the Revision. As with any other amendment, it will need to be adopted by the Delegates before it becomes part of the proposed Revision.

10) The document with the lines numbered is the document that is the proposed Revision with the provisos. The numbers can be used to more easily identify the place that a Delegate wants to propose to amend (change). This is the document that will be open for discussion and amendment.

11) The document with the three (3) columns is a comparison between the current Constitution and the proposed Revision. This may help the members see where changes are being made in the proposed Revision.





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Old 05-06-2011, 01:49 PM   #814
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Bob,

Since you don't know what's going to be in the final version of the "New Constitution",

Who, what, when, where, how are these created?

Since the adopted Constitution takes effect immediately, the provisos need to be adopted prior to the adoption of the Constitution or as "attached provisos".
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Old 05-06-2011, 03:20 PM   #815
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Bob,

Since you don't know what's going to be in the final version of the "New Constitution"

Who, what, when, where, how are these created?
More slight of hand?

Can you say "pig in a poke?"
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:37 PM   #816
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Can you say "pig in a poke?"
. . . So. . . is the Delegates Meeting going to be a pig roast?

(Which would be better than certain other barnyard animal figures of speech that come to mind. . .)

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Old 05-06-2011, 04:44 PM   #817
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Can we play fair?

Today, I got an email stating the samething that Bob just posted from WBCCI HQ.

WBCCI Members,

The following information, from the Constitution Revision Committee, is to address various questions about the proposed Revised WBCCI Constitution. etc... etc... etc..


I have a statement/question.

Statement:

Since the Revision Committee has now been allow to use the email address of the WBCCI to send out “official” emails telling us why and how thing will happen and Norm telling us how great it is and why it was needed.

Question:

Can members who think the New Constitution is a bad idea and the process is wrong have the WBCCI HQ send out official emails for us stating our point of view and why it should not be passed?
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:33 PM   #818
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Bob,

Since you don't know what's going to be in the final version of the "New Constitution",
Quote:
Originally Posted by rideair View Post


Who, what, when, where, how are these created?


Since the adopted Constitution takes effect immediately, the provisos need to be adopted prior to the adoption of the Constitution or as "attached provisos".


First let's be clear on what a proviso is so as not to have you and John Irwin intimate it is a big bad boggy man.

They are merely provisions during the transition of old to new, enacting same. RONR p. 578.


When the Revision is adopted, there will be areas that will need to be transitioned into over time. There will be a set of procedures that will be attached to the Constitution to give time lines for this to happen. Once each transition is completed, that procedure will be deleted from print. Each of these is called a "proviso". These are already included in the three column pdf, here

However, if amendments not known if adopted additional provisos may need to be added upon the vote of the delegates.





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Old 05-06-2011, 05:42 PM   #819
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Paul

You and many others are still having a problem excepting that the Revision Committee is an appointed Committee appointed by the IP and as such their business is official. They did not misuse the E Mail system of Headquarters but rather Headquarters sent out that e mailing as official business.

As one who has received a cease and desist letter, with respect to using the membership e mail list, from the Clubs Lawyers I would assume those opposed will not have access to this e mail system. However if you do not accept this you can always call HQ and request they E Mail on your behalf.

Several unit have requested information on this Constitutional change. Some units have asked for someone with knowledge on the subject come and speak to the unit. The Committee is responding as best they can but are limited by time and distance so alternative methods are being used to get the word out. Your unit had such a presentation last week, you missed it.

Under the New Constitution it is assumed members will have greatly improved access to communicate within the Club. Publication of none Nominating Committee candidates will have access to the BB. Hopefully there will be a Forum set up for members to openly discuss the Club. You loose sight of the fact that the IP had the controversial marketing tool of a used Airstream salesman, masking as an Airstream Forum, closed when advised of it's actions.

I for one am prepared to accept criticism if the Revised Constitution is passed and deemed a failure after reasonable time. Are you prepared to accept responsibility if the Club remains governed by the policies you so vehemently opposed while in unit leadership and continues it's descent?

One of us is going to right.




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Old 05-06-2011, 05:56 PM   #820
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Originally Posted by rideair View Post
I have a statement/question.

Statement:

Since the Revision Committee has now been allow to use the email address of the WBCCI to send out “official” emails telling us why and how thing will happen and Norm telling us how great it is and why it was needed.

Question:

Can members who think the New Constitution is a bad idea and the process is wrong have the WBCCI HQ send out official emails for us stating our point of view and why it should not be passed?


I realize you have not asked one question pertaining to the Revision directly to the committee for some reason only being vocal herein playing to your band of naysayers.

That being said, why ask here, you know very well how to call HQ for that.

If you want to save a dime, just email the full committee with your statement, position, questions and reasons you feel it is wrong.

In case you mis placed it WBCCIrevision@Gmail.com



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Old 05-06-2011, 09:14 PM   #821
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Bob,

The "proviso's" were written for the New Constitution as it was created by the Revision Committee.

I'm just asking:

What happens if durning the delegates meeting things are changed so much the proviso's are no longer valid as written? Who then controls the writting of them?

It appears you don't like anyone that ask tough questions and does not agree with your point of view, to the point of the "name calling" tatics it appears you love so much and used once again in your last post to me. Call me a "naysayer" "trouble maker" "sock puppet", etc... all you want. Remember, "YOU'RE" the one on the Revision Committee, not me. I can personally say it's sad that a WBCCI Committee Member would act this way to the membership when they are asked to answer questions. In all of my interactions (face2face, email, phone, oh and they called me to ask for my help) with others on the Revision Committee through the years, I've never been called any of the names that I have been here by you. Maybe they did behind my back, but never in an open forum.

As for asking questions directly to the committee, I unlike some, like to keep things out in the open for all to see. By doing it that way, others may have their questions answered as well and nothing is being done behind closed doors.

Remember, you're the one pushing for a "Member Caucus" with open discussion for all the world to see and hopes of bringing back the WBCCI forums as a way to do so. For a system you seem to be pushing, it appears you're not in favor of it when it comes to questions about the very Constitution you are pushing to create it!

If the past few months of getting kicked around by you is any indication of how things will be with a "Member Caucus" type system and discussions, I'll stick to the old Delegates system anytime!
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Old 05-06-2011, 09:24 PM   #822
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The amendment process appears complicated—everything in writing, 4 copies. This means people must work in groups so someone can see what is happening on the floor and make motions if necessary, contact the people in the copying and printing room, maybe through walkie talkies. You also need a runner to pass written copies back and forth. If a comma or a word needs to be added, print that, copy that, make another motion. Someone on the floor can bring a small laptop, compose an amendment, send it wirelessly to their own printer, perhaps battery powered, and do this much more quickly. Nonetheless, this is going to take a lot of time.

The chair is not going to want the meeting to go into the early morning and will try to limit debate. Once it is seen the first amendment (which is or is not an amendment or a revision depending on what you read) takes a very long time, things will get rushed. The last amendments will have to be considered very fast because time will run out. There are rules regarding closing or extending debate and it's very important to know them.

If you want to make this fail, I suppose making every point and appeal and amendment to amendment will eat so much time as to make the whole thing a farce. There will be a temptation to do that, but I suggest avoiding that. Dropping bombs and fomenting delay sometimes works for good, but mostly just angers your possible supporters. Of course if everyone is angry at the chair, then the anger can be turned in your favor.

No matter what happens, there will be lots of controversy and blow back. Either way I expect members will be lost and maybe if it works out positively, eventually they will come back. Given how this organization has a long history of losing members and alienating the ones that stay, it's hard to see how how success will ensue. And, although I wish the WBCCI well, if Bob is one of its leaders I can't imagine ever becoming a member. Someone who cannot control himself and stop insulting people personally is hardly someone to go to a rally with much less respect as a spokesman or leader.

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Old 05-07-2011, 12:39 AM   #823
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The amendment process appears complicated—everything in writing, 4 copies. This means people must work in groups...contact the people in the copying and printing room...You also need a runner...Someone on the floor can bring a small laptop... Nonetheless, this is going to take a lot of time.
Just wondering if all those on these committies and runners and big-wigs spent this much time trying to recruit new WBCCI members instead of playing "big-government" how much more could be accomplished and slow down the bleed-off of members.

???

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Old 05-07-2011, 11:01 AM   #824
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Good point "rideair" All this name calling and last minute, "too late" Revised Constiutuion PR is falling on deaf ears. why wasn't this done sooner? Too little, too late, just say NO!
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Old 05-07-2011, 04:31 PM   #825
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Too little, too late, just say NO!
Good idea! Think I'll order a few of these to pass out at our unit's spring rally. . . before the business meeting. . .

Button - 1.5" Round Just Say No

Just Say No Button from Zazzle.com
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Old 05-07-2011, 06:18 PM   #826
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Just thought you might like to see how the Old Guard, that you have all claimed set this committee up and were pushing for it passage is in reality running scared that it might pass and is attempting to block progress.

The Fl. unit, that this comment came from, has a sizable number of IBT, PIP, and BT, plus the one man Constitutional Committee and the past National Membership Chairman in it attempted to railroad a No vote through the greater membership of that unit.

Hi HowieE
I sent that, He is referring to the minutes of their last meeting not attached here, to you so you could see how your old buddy in the FL Unit tried to ram rod the vote against the new constitution. I was livid that they would let 5 people speak for 62 with a vote at an unscheduled meeting.
A few days later after some of us voiced our displeasure, the vote they had their was ruled as not happening. All members have can now vote by mail or e-mail.
I have sent them my vote in favor of the new one

There is something to be said for 1M1V. If they have it they will use it.




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