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Old 05-26-2011, 11:50 AM   #1001
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Originally Posted by rideair View Post
"


The "current" WBCCI Constitution could be fixed in "TWO"
There is one at least one more major fix needed. May be a bylaws situation rather than constitution.

No body seems too concerned about the code of ethic and the grievance committee these days.

The use of that bludgeon could re-appear at any moment if we become complacent
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Old 05-26-2011, 11:54 AM   #1002
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"As of now from what I understand thru the grapevine, there are probably about 20+ amendments that will be discussed."

Let's see, 20+ amendments to fix the "New Constitution"???

The "current" WBCCI Constitution could be fixed in "TWO"
But in ten years tell me why you never proposed those "TWO" amendments?



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Old 05-26-2011, 12:02 PM   #1003
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There is one at least one more major fix needed. May be a bylaws situation rather than constitution.

No body seems too concerned about the code of ethic and the grievance committee these days.
Lynn thinks those parts are superior in the current version?????



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Originally Posted by eubank View Post
With the addition of Forrest's amendment, the old constitution is superior to the proposed new one. Hence our votes.


Lynn
add to the code of ethic and the grievance committee issues what is superior about spending an extra $17,000 on travel with a big IBT?

How long or impossible is it to amend the constitution

Where do the members have the right to amend the BYLAWS


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Old 05-26-2011, 01:30 PM   #1004
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But in ten years tell me why you never proposed those "TWO" amendments?

Oh come on, come out from under the either! With a track record of trashing Forrest's motion at Mid Winter, do you really think THEY (EC-7) would allow mere members to get a foothold to IBT power, change Bylaws, I don't think so. So whatever Paul or others would have, could have, put out there as an amendment in the past, like Forrest' motion this year, would not be allowed to fly. Please relisten to the entire score from Robstown, the message is very clear. Look how long it has taken for Forrest's motion to get the "clearance" to be sent out for club-wide review, it took the membership to cry out "foul."

And look how sneeky in the Revision Article One wants to insert Airstream RV Association. Just because its used on the club stationary doesn't make it right. If anything, it leaves ambuguity. The only sensible insertion into Revised Article One is to use the words, Airstream RV Club. That is more to the point than using the word 'Association." And won't allow for any deviation.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:40 PM   #1005
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The point is how can you be satisfied with that Constitution and that process?

Even if denco unit passed to day how are you going to change the bylaws?

What makes you think the denco will not hit the same brick wall when you try and use it?

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The only sensible insertion into Revised Article One is to use the words, Airstream RV Club. That is more to the point than using the word 'Association." And won't allow for any deviation.
Ok, propose that amendment I imagine it will pass, I wouldn't oppose it.


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Old 05-26-2011, 02:03 PM   #1006
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Chris

Are you trying to excuse all those that did nothing for years, but complaint about the management of the WBCCI, just because once someone did stand up and hit a roadblock. Does a resent failure really excuse all those that did nothing before?

You would have made one hell of a combat commander.




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Old 05-26-2011, 02:17 PM   #1007
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From the few voting results posted here, early returns indicate the amendments are not going to pass. Of, course, things can change. If I were proposing this, I'd be thinking about "what next?" I'd be thinking about withdrawing them and getting back to work on something that would pass next year. For those who want real change, also "what next?" applies. How do you get all new leaders?

And thanks to Joe for his compliment several days ago. After the first sentence, however, you misread my comments—they were about how leadership "appears". Reputation is everything and once lost is hard to get back. The leaders don't look good and 1,000+ members not renewing affirms that. Those of us—many, many thousands—don't want to join a club that appears characterized by internecine warfare. Maybe it can all change and maybe the club will be reinvigorated and maybe I'll join then, but what are the chances of that? Meanwhile the internet has changed everything and people can go to rallies, make friends and go on caravans this way. Radical change brought by the internet can only be met by radical change in the WBCCI and fighting over the constitution and bylaws instead of a complete new start brought by new leadership can do so. Changing the constitution may bring some change in leaders over time, but is there enough time? Has the train left the station? Good luck, but you have a very difficult time ahead.

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Old 05-26-2011, 02:21 PM   #1008
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Five years ago I suggested to the then President of the WDCU unit that someone should start talks with Thor Corp as to the succession of WBCCI after the then current leadership would succeed in the trashing of the Club.

That unit was sizable, I believe 140 strong at that point and growing, and well behind the unit President. The unit was recognition through out the WBCCI as one that stood for change and the curtailment of the excesses that were leading the Club to financial ruin. Nothing of that magnitude was started let alone 2 amendments proposed.

Now we can set here and discuss the use of the word Association, given that it meets a legal requirement under Ohio State Law, or we can get down to real business and fix this mess.
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Old 05-26-2011, 02:27 PM   #1009
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Greater Than Thou

Bob,

Your greater than thou attitude makes me laugh!

If it was not for those that fought before the way they did to keep the WBCCI, the WBCCI and an Airstream Only club, you currently would be trying to change the Constitution of the “Airstream Owners Bla, Bla Club” and camping next to Mandalay Motorhomes.

It was not a fight for change. Remember the slogan was “Save Wally”, not “Change Wally”.

As far as I’m concerned,

You and the Revision Committee are no different than the Name Change Committee and the MOHO Committee trying to “force” your wanted changes onto the rest of the membership of the club. Once again, we have a “Special Committee” formed by the IP/IBT/EC7 to try and force their wanted changes onto the membership.

I find it also funny you keep throwing out the $17,000 number. What facts do you have to support that? According to “Bugdoc”:

“There is nothing in the revision that establishes the number of Regions and if the author can provide an approved version of the revision document stating this I am sure the committee would like to see it. Is this just more case of innuendo and misinformation?”

So we don’t know how many Regions there will be, it may not be less, but could be more $$$ spent! Remember, $$$$ is controlled by (say it with me) “The Bylaws”. Even if you reduce the number of Regions, if a Region Prez has to do all that traveling for now a “Larger Region”, it could cost more per-Region Prez to travel, it’s the same size pie (budget), just bigger pieces for each person!

As for the “Forrest Amendment”, did you not read it? Remember the words:

“The Delegates shall have full authority to construe and interpret the Club’s Constitution and annually review and/or repeal any Club Bylaw and/or Policy.”

Based on what has been done as far as I’m concerned, the word “review” can be seen to make changes as well. Is it a fine line? Yes. It’s just about as fine of a line that you and the Revision Committee are trying to skate in saying this is a “REVISED” WBCCI Constitution instead of “AMENDING” the current one. You know, kind of like Norm asking you guys to “review” the WBCCI Bylaws and in its place totally did a re-write of the WBCCI Constitution!

Review:
To examine with an eye to criticism or correction:

As for why I did not propose the changes, my life is not long enough to see it through and I have better things to do with my time than spend at least two+ years on top of the already years I spent fighting to keep you a member of the WBCCI with other Airstream owners.
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:37 PM   #1010
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As for the “Forrest Amendment”, did you not read it? Remember the words:

“The Delegates shall have full authority to construe and interpret the Club’s Constitution and annually review and/or repeal any Club Bylaw and/or Policy.”
That proposed clause is two parts
First is only pertaining to the Constitution
"authority to construe and interpret the Club’s Constitution"

Where in there is the members power/authority to amend ? Is it in the word
construe to determine the meaning of the words of a written document, statute or legal decision, based upon rules of legal interpretation as well as normal meanings, including RONR.

No it is not.

Second part only relates to Bylaws & policy not the Constitution
"review and/or repeal any Club Bylaw and/or Policy"

Review usually means to simply make sure the a bylaw or policy conforms to the intent of the Article of the Constitution they purport to implement.

Repeal ok we know what that means, but is that going to get real change.

How within that clause do real amendments get thru the system?

Denco was a very good attempt but doesn't go far enough, and how long is that motion pending? If all the stars line up when will it pass, 2012. It couldn't be used until 2013 later after the CBL tears it apart.

The revision allows all that to happen on short time frame (assuming 1 amendment is adopted)



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Old 05-26-2011, 04:59 PM   #1011
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Old 05-26-2011, 06:44 PM   #1012
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Provide me with a list of unit delegates from the name change and motorhome efforts ('06 & '07) and not only will I point out the shills, I'll show you how some were rewarded for their efforts in subsequent years because they were valuable players -- they sided with the EC7...
We are not talking about '06 or '07 and again your innuendo is that the committee is one of shills. I will state it again, no one on the committee is a shill.

Quote:
No need for hypotheticals here -- let's deal with facts instead... MetroNY had ~35 members. Typical real votes at business meetings were running ~8-13 rigs.

For the sake of making voting readily acceptable to ALL we established mail ballots -- electronic and printed. All but ~3 members had emails and everyone that had them actively used them. Without hounding members to vote electronically (and I do mean hounding) ~3 members opted to vote online, no one sent in a paper ballot. In a panic, with almost no votes to base our proportional voting with, certainly far less than anything we ever collected at a business meeting, we decided to allow mail ballots to be turned in at the next rally and yielded ~10 additional mail ballots at the conclusion of that business meeting.

We did manage to coax a few other members into voting online making the combined REAL vote tally higher than anything that had been collected in recent years, prior to proportioning (our RIGHT as a Unit).

My unit's EXPERIENCE seems to run contrary to this committee's whims with regards to the voting process. Why should the membership even tolerate another committee producing pie in the sky procedural changes that are baseless from concept to execution and brought forward without any real data to support their proposal? This proposal is EMPTY -- there is NOTHING in it that guarantees the membership that this will be a real improvement -- yielding even more member participation -- absolutely NOTHING.
I applaud your effort to engage your membership in your previous Unit and I have heard other units have done the same. However, not all have had your apparent results. In my unit the switch to electronic and mail ballots resulted in an increase of 25% in the participation of the Unit members. I believe when there are multiple candidate for an office or a real issue to be considered participation increases significantly. Participation in business meetings or electronic or mail balloting where there are no choices does not encourage participation. This is one of the reasons the committee changed the nomination portion of the constitution.
Again you have made a series of statements without a factual base, e.g., "another committee producing pie in the sky procedural changes that are baseless from concept to execution and brought forward without any real data to support their proposal". What is your background data to substantiate the statement?

Quote:
This EC7 revision committee can go ahead and poke the big units with their pie in the sky proposal and it will be no different than poking a hornets nest with a nice big stick -- good luck with that. How many disenfranchised 200+ member units would rather invest their $13,000.00+ annual dollars on themselves instead of on a club that doesn't respect their financial contribution, their right to their member's votes? How many individual unit members will want their unit's votes disenfranchised?
I am sorry, but this makes no sense. How does giving the membership the right to vote on issues and nominations disrespect them? If you have the right to vote rather than having a business meeting determine your vote, how is any one disenfranchise?


Quote:
5 Areas -- My memory is from the last pre-released rev supplied by Forrest that said something to the affect of 'no fewer than five areas.' I guess somebody had that removed after the revision committee spent what, 5-6 months with it in there? Why was this 'no fewer than 5' removed at the last minute?
The only document that has credibility is the final version, not an unauthorized one. This is just a red herring. The constitution is not the place for establishing numbers of Regions/Areas.

Quote:
In the current voting system you have 2-3 Unit Officers at a minimum certifying their votes. When you collect votes at a unit business meeting your membership witnesses that portion of the unit's voting.

How do 2-3 individuals at HQs certify anything for the entire club?
Sorry, again the committee is not so naive to not have considered this issue, but again, how do you certify the voting intentions of those that were unable to attend the business meeting where the voting proportion was determined. Most certainly the Officers can certify that vote, but is it the actual intention of those who were unable to attend?

Quote:
Are you a Past Unit President of your unit? Did I really need to explain the real world realities of certifying votes at the unit level under current club policies? If you are a PUP was this not your experience?

I believe the real world scenario addressing your second point really puts that question to bed. Certified at the unit level is REAL -- certification at HQs -- come'on let's get real shall we?
Personally I have been and am involved with a number of state and national organizations with far more members then WBCCI and who utilize electronic and mail balloting for their elections. They have done so for years and the mechanisms exist to have a certifiable vote. Translated, no one can vote more than once, every vote is recorded and the reporting is done by a disinterested third party.

Quote:
The International Rally indeed belongs in the constitution of the club, making it mandatory that IBT meetings be held there in the full purview of the membership. It is central and key to holding a Delegates Meeting. Removing the International Rally as a constitutional requirement, removing the Delegates from the process with its FAIR and EQUAL unit representation this revision committee will in fact kill the International Rally.

It was both intentional and deliberate to do this as this inexperienced committee is attempting to kill the deliberative nature of this club in one fell swoop. My guess is that members will find this sentiment echoed in Duquoin and this naive attempt will fail. I'm encouraged by hearing all the VOTE NO results being reported by different units. These units are informed and understand what this committee does not.
Yes in fact not having a Delegates meeting is a consequence of 1M1V, not because the International rally was removed from the constitution. There is no intention to do away with the International Rally, it is far to important to the culture of the club.

Quote:
How appropriate that we would take a very small camping club which suffers from ever increasing dues (the primer for this revisit can be found in the June BB page 19), irresponsible spending, irresponsible charging and compare this with big government?
Again these are not issues in the revised constitution they are Bylaw issues. We are trying to establish a constitution that will allow such Bylaws issues to addressed.

Quote:
There are simply conflict of interests here. An EC7 special committee and its members should be able to be called upon to answer questions from the Delegates, *if* the Delegates were allowed to run their own meeting, call for their own reports, ask club officials to come to the podium to answer questions and answers. Yet the EC7 and the IP in particular have held the Delegates in chains for years.
If in fact these are issues of importance then the proposed revision allows for amendment to put in place mechanisms to address them. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

Quote:
The place for this committee and its members is NOT to sit in multiple seats as Delegates trying to steer the meeting. These are the members of an EC7 special committee - they don't belong in Delegates seats. If one were the member of an individual unit that initiated this change that's one thing, but here EC7 Special Committee members are trying to play on both sides of the fence -- they have no business being placed in Delegate's seats, especially when it is their intent to eliminate the mere existance of Delegates in this club. Conflict of Interest -- plain and simple.
The purpose behind 1M1V is not to eliminate the Delegates in fact Article XVI does exactly what you were complaining did not exist. It provides for a forum for the membership to engage in discussion on issues of significance to the club something that does not occur in Delegates meeting now. As a committee member and possible Delegate I have an interest in providing these kinds of opportunities and most certainly the possible 4 votes the committee members bring to the floor will not determine the outcome.

Quote:
Quite frankly Tom, for all the hours of time and phone calls (everyone does have FREE long distance these days, no?) that at least one of these members claim to have sacrificed, I would think this to be a personal embarrassment that the drafted document is so poor in both concept and execution, especially for the amount of time claimed it was worked on. The forum body here could quickly see that one of this EC7's revision committee members was merely trying to gain an education by what was being asked and what was being questioned. Then again you'd have to have some basis from which to believe anything that one of this revision committee's members could ever claim or state. For what few things could actually fall into a real improvement category, the basic principal for which this document drives the future of the club couldn't be much farther off course. It is definitely destructive in its basic concept.
Your statement, "I would think this to be a personal embarrassment that the drafted document is so poor in both concept and execution" as well as the balance of the quote above is not constructive. The committee is not embarrassed, I think we are more puzzled by the lack of appreciation of how the proposed changes can engage the membership in the direct governance of the club something I believe you were a strong advocate for.

Quote:
This committee had the perfect opportunity to make minor to mid-size tweeks and fix the problems this club has. It was all easily doable within the confines of the current constitution. From my perspective this committee evolved like most other self-important committees evolve. Nothing was good enough with the current system, so let's throw it all out and let's just see how creative we can get. GRADE D-
The "minor tweaks" needed in the governance documents are in two places, the Constitution and the Bylaws. As I have said, you cannot change the Bylaws unless the changes are consistent with the constitution. Revising the constitution allows for significant changes in the Bylaws to allow for the kind of governance you advocate.
Quote:
Didn't AOAI operate under pure asumptions? How about the Four Winds Motorhomes -- again assumption driven. Does this committee have anything to back up this DMV effort or any other new changes being proposed here, like trying to once again incorporate Airstream's own trademark into the WBCCI constitution? Are we incapable of learning the lessons from prior failed attempts, a lack of research, a failure to produce real financial impact statements -- we're really still driving critical club issues on pure assumptions?
You have made many assumptions in this quote about the intent of the revision committee and fortunately your wrong.

Tom
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:29 PM   #1013
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INTEGRITY

1 Rigid appearance to a code of behavior; probity. 2 The state of being unimpaired, soundness. 3 Completeness, unity. Synonyms at honesty.

A description I find had to apply to one that reneges on financial pledges and strategic commitments.

While it is too late to complete either of the above it is possible to see that the historical material of the Metro New York unit currently hold hostage is returned and thus begin to rebuild that characteristic that others are requested to exhibit.



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Old 05-26-2011, 07:42 PM   #1014
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Howie, are you sure you want to be throwing stones? I read in the bible "a man living in a house made of glass should not throw stones"... Good words to live by.
Was it not you who looked me in the eye and asked me to donate to the Lawsuit? You personally asked me to donate to the legal fund to reinstate the very man who's integrity you are now questioning.
Talk about twist of fate, turning the tables, pot calling the kettle black.

I am glad I told you a flat out "NO".

As predicted, to your face, A)The lawsuit never happened. B) Leo was finished, ship sailed, not getting back in till hell freezes over, and C) the only person getting anything was the lawyers (those foolish enough to donate lost $.40 on the dollar).

ALL my predictions came true, everyone of them. I looked you in the eye as I made them too.
Should had predicted, "Leo will be stabbed in the back by his very circle of friends"
FOR SHAME
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:53 PM   #1015
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:57 PM   #1016
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Thumbs down

While Howie and Bob are slapping each other on the back and seeing the world in absolutes, the kind that show them right, absolutely, and everyone else wrong, they clearly demonstrate the type of character of poor leadership that suffers from a sense of their own entitlement, and it is that very caustic and denegrating way that has and will continue, to drive away the average member and potential member of the WBCCI. There is nothing balanced or fair about it.

How do you transform yourselves to appear as servants of righteousness? I would watch out for lightning if I were you. Paul had the behaviour pegged right, holier than thou, and with the least likelihood to ever pull off that guise, especially here, having watched the whole ugly scenario play out.

Where respect, communication, and debate should be generously employed, we witness thug-like tag team tactics to stifle and control through insult and buffoonery. One needs not even point it out, it's just that obvious.
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Old 05-26-2011, 08:29 PM   #1017
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I am just of the old school. I used New College Edition. If Google has rewritten the English language I have not yet subscribed to it.

Frank

I am not sure the vote is in yet. But maybe I should have ask you how Apple would fare since I am down 20 point in the last few weeks.
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Old 05-26-2011, 08:41 PM   #1018
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First take a moment to think what integrity means.

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All ten of these words describe in part the character of someone who has integrity. The latin root of the word integrity is similar to that for integer, meaning whole number. The concept of wholeness, or consistency is clearly relevant. For now, we shall take "behaviour and decisions which are consistently in line with our principles" as our working definition of acting with integrity. The dictionary would also suggest that these principles should generally be accepted as ethical and honest.

Next, look up IRONY.
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Old 05-26-2011, 09:51 PM   #1019
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Exclamation

<<Mod Hat On>>

Some 23+ hours ago we were reminded to keep things civil. We try to let threads run the natural course but we're way off track here.

Things need to get back on topic and civil or we will intervene.

On behalf of the site team..
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Old 05-27-2011, 06:10 AM   #1020
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Is anyone going to add anything constructive to this thread? Is there a definite a proposal that will either fix all the problems that are evident in the "proposed" constitution or do we just vote no and fix the three areas in the old constitution that will save the same amount of money the "committee" claims the "proposed" constitution started out to save. Certainly, the Regions need to be rebalanced and reduced. (This is not a Constitutional Issue.) This will require that the Officer travel is not a requirement of office. Electronic communication is a viable replacement. Certainly, the MALs deserve a way to vote. However, MALS do not seem to want to vote as evidenced by the fact they refuse to accept a $19/year reduction in dues to avail themselves of the right to vote.
The electronic or snail mail method of voting is available to all members who are members of a unit. The 3rd IVP, Secretary, Past IP, and Treasure should be made non- voting offices to keep the power balance in place with the reduced number of Regions.

What else do we need, besides a change in top level leadership to people who have some knowledge of business and marketing and recognize the club is in the entertainment business and is selling memberships to people who want to have a fun camping and touring usage from their Airstream?

The competitive market place for clubs servicing Airstream owners is getting crowded and WBCCI is definitely losing market share. The Revision Committee has lost sight of the target goal of why they thought they were created.
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