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Old 04-05-2011, 10:48 AM   #659
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There was a post about how to gain recognition from the floor during the meeting.

The way to gain recognition to make a motion is to raise your hand. When making a point (of order, information, personal privilege, etc.) you raise your hand and say what type of point you are making. But, when the time comes for motions to be made, people raise their hands and wait for recognition. Then you can make a motion. Once a motion is made and seconded, the floor should be open for discussion. There may have been a time limit put on discussion and normally, it takes a 2/3 vote to close discussion to a certain time limit. The constitution or bylaws may change that, however. There may be a motion at the beginning of the meeting to adopt certain rules that you don't know anything about and it's best not to let the chair ram that through.

Obviously chairpersons ignore people at times and the remedy is to start making procedural points—for ex., the sarcastic approach would be to make a point of information and ask the chair if he or she intends to ignore people trying to make motions, or a point of order requesting how the chair can not acknowledge people.

These are the simple parts of Robert's Rules. It gets a lot more complicated when you really get into it. Looks also for any procedural rules in any of the organization's documents. Of course, it is good to know the statutes under which the organization is incorporated. Lawyers get these things wrong sometimes, so don't get discouraged if it is confusing—it's like learning anything. It doesn't come overnight.

For those who want to vote down the whole thing: if you do, then what? Are you better off, worse off, the same? Wouldn't it be better to try to amend each part, of you can't, then vote it down. And if you tie the hands of delegates you show distrust of them and maybe make it impossible to make things better.

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Old 04-05-2011, 11:09 AM   #660
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Excellent point! It is easier to change direction while moving, than while stationary.
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:17 AM   #661
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Arrow Member control of the Bylaws

this was posted on Metro NY

There has always been a concern of the members that they have no ability to amend the Bylaws.

Here is a proposed amendment being contemplated by Metro NY for presentation at the delgates meeting, by their delegate.

ARTICLE XVI

Sec. 2 Any chartered Unit, Area Board,the IBT, or the International President may submit in writing to Headquarters
a proposed amendment to this
Standard of Conduct,
Bylaws (commencing in 2012) or Constitution.

If adopted this should solve numerous issues.


proposed amendment in red



.
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:27 AM   #662
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"Submit" is not the same as "adopt or amend". I could write a letter to headquarters with my ideas and I supposed that would be a submission.

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Old 04-06-2011, 12:19 PM   #663
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Apparently the discussion on the revised constitution has moved to the Metro NY forum.

I was requested by a member of the revision committee to address my unanswered questions to the new email address for this committee. I prepared and sent a new email with my questions, since I was told that not all members of the committee monitored this thread on AirForums.

I sent my questions, with a couple of new questions and comments to the email address. Some of my questions and comments with response from committee members were posted on the Metro NY forum.

The last two items regarding Article IX and I were not answered.

Since I had originally posted my questions here, I am copying their responses here:

1. If the revised constitution is passed as is, with no changes, will the members have any additional control over the by-laws than they have now?

Response: The proposed revised Constitution retains the authority of the IBT to “define Bylaws and policies” as per the existing Constitution. The clause regarding the powers “to construe and interpret” in the current Constitution has been deleted in the revision and is proposed to be addressed in the Bylaws themselves. It will be necessary to review both the revised Constitution and the revised Bylaws to answer this question fully, otherwise a direct comparison cannot be made. If the Delegates want to see these powers spelled out more specifically in the Constitution, then an amendment to accomplish this can be presented.

Kerry M


Article VI

Should be clearer that MALs have the right to vote for international officers and on changes to the constitution


Response: We believe that the proposed wording is clear as written. MAL’s will have all of the rights of regular members except for voting or holding office in Units and Areas, as they do not belong to either. It is simpler to list the two exclusions than the longer list of inclusions.


Article XVI

The member caucus is to be "...scheduled during the summer months or at a scheduled International Rally...". Shouldn't it be required that the caucus be at the International Rally to insure the most members attend and participate?

If the July meeting is held using electronic means, will members be able to comment on the agenda or only able to listen? Is it necessary to attend the international in person to participate in the Caucus?

I am uncertain that replacing the current delegate system with the member caucus is an improvement.


Response: There have been many suggestions that the International Rally needs more flexibility in setting dates and some question whether it should be held annually. We would expect that the Caucus would normally be held at the Rally but what if a Rally is not held or is cancelled? This provision would give the Club the flexibility to schedule another venue for a Members’ Caucus.

Freeing the International Rally from the July 1 – July 4 bracket can have benefits of more flexibility in finding good locations and may facilitate attendance by more members, but it creates challenges for statutory requirements for conducting certain Club business associated with the start and finish of a fiscal year, such as the installation of new officers. We believe that suitable electronic systems are available to allow effective participation. Details of how these meetings will be conducted will be addressed in Bylaws and policies.

The current delegate system is being replaced by both direct member voting and the Members’ caucus. They are fully linked. Direct member voting obviates the role of the delegate and we want to retain a deliberative forum through the Caucus. We are encouraging broad discussion throughout the Club so that members can decide if these combined changes are an improvement.


Article VII
I agree with the extension of term for the Treasurer, but it is necessary for the Recording Secretary?

Why are the Treasurer and Recording Secretary voting members of the IBT and Executive Committee? It seems to me that these are staff positions and not line positions.


Response: The terms of the Treasurer and Recording Secretary are proposed to be extended to two years to provide greater continuity on the Executive Committee and the IBT. With the terms expiring in alternate years, there will be no gap in the continuity. It is quite normal to designate these elected positions as members of the Executive in a nonprofit membership organization. Their roles are important to the Club.


Kerry


Article XII

The IBT will have total control over the number of new areas. These areas are to be of equal membership. How often will the areas be reorganized? Is the number of members based on the units or the location of the individual members? For those units which cover more than one state, how will they be assigned to areas? Will units in states be split into more than one areas?

I don't believe that it is necessary to change the word "Region" to "Area".

I thought that there was a minimum number of areas, but cannot locate it. Can someone point me to the correct section?




Response: The proposed revised Constitution does not address the number of Areas or how often they may be changed. An earlier draft that was released without authorization has created some confusion in this regard. As with our current Constitution, the Bylaws will provide the details of “how” and “when”. There has been much discussion about the best number of “Areas” or “Regions” and views still differ widely. The Club will need the flexibility to adjust its organization in response to changing membership numbers and this is best accomplished through Bylaws which are easier to amend.

The change from “Regions” to “Areas” is in part a move back to our early years and in part a deliberate attempt to avoid the impression of creating winners and losers in identifying a number of new Areas, as opposed to Regions. With the new designation, everyone gets a new name and there should be no confusion with historical documents.


Kerry


Article IX

As a CPA and interested member, I don't think that an audit should be replaced by a review. I believe that it is important for a entity of this size to have audited financial statements which are distributed to the membership. What is the cost of an audit and what is the cost of a review by the WBCCI's independent accountants?

Article I

I see no need to add "The Airstream RV Association".
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:43 PM   #664
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Bylaws Revision

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDavis View Post
It would be a lot easier to know what to support if we could see the bylaws. Perhaps this should be delayed a year so the whole package is available.. I have developed so much patience waiting to get to this point whats another year?
Rick,

The proposed changes in the constitution are extensive and if accepted by the membership will require an extensive rewrite of the Bylaws. Yes I suppose the Bylaws could be written at the same time as the revision, but it would be a waste of time considering no one knows 1) if the Delegates will vote for the revision, and 2) what amendments will be proposed for the Articles of the revision.

The other thing is that many of the complaints expressed by members and nonmembers on this thread are not controlled by the constitution or Bylaws, but other documents such as the International Rally manual. Do these need to be reworked, yes!

This process of change is not going to take place overnight and having worked with all of these documents rather intensively the past 8 months I realize there is no silver bullet out there that will fix the problems. The solution is to start with the foundation, constitution, and build from there building a better governance structure.

Tom
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:51 PM   #665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkerfoot View Post

Article IX

As a CPA and interested member, I don't think that an audit should be replaced by a review. I believe that it is important for a entity of this size to have audited financial statements which are distributed to the membership. What is the cost of an audit and what is the cost of a review by the WBCCI's independent accountants?

Article I

I see no need to add "The Airstream RV Association".
Check again please, I missed posting those two
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:56 PM   #666
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Committee response to one of my questions:

Article IX


As a CPA and interested member, I don't think that an audit should be replaced by a review. I believe that it is important for a entity of this size to have audited financial statements which are distributed to the membership. What is the cost of an audit and what is the cost of a review by the WBCCI's independent accountants?

Good question and most certainly that language can be changed in the proposal or better yet very specific directions be established in the Bylaws.



The question of cost has not been answered. Does an amendment need to be prepared to add this?

Bill
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:57 PM   #667
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The committee response to my last item:

Article I

I see no need to add "The Airstream RV Association".

The Letterhead of the WBBCI clearly says "The Airstream RV Association" and this is not a change in the name of the club only a recognition of an alternate name used by the club.




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Old 04-06-2011, 02:20 PM   #668
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And I wasn't more than 95% sure I should drop out.

I won't waste another 20 minutes reading about this. Good luck Wheel Int. and all those who're sticking it out. See you down the road at a VAC or Forum function.

If they had a crying Wally emoticon I'd use it.

Paula
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:39 PM   #669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
this was posted on Metro NY

There has always been a concern of the members that they have no ability to amend the Bylaws.

Here is a proposed amendment being contemplated by Metro NY for presentation at the delgates meeting, by their delegate.

ARTICLE XVI

Sec. 2 Any chartered Unit, Area Board,the IBT, or the International President may submit in writing to Headquarters
a proposed amendment to this
Standard of Conduct,
Bylaws (commencing in 2012) or Constitution.

If adopted this should solve numerous issues.

proposed amendment in red
.
Often times problems can be solved by a stroke of a pen. For those that have questioned about control of the Bylaws as a missing part of the equation should go back and reread Article XVI with this single word addition as an amendment. The date of 2012 is an administrative necessity allowing the Revision Committee to complete their assigned task of rewriting the Bylaws.
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:49 PM   #670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foiled Again View Post
And I wasn't more than 95% sure I should drop out.

I won't waste another 20 minutes reading about this. Good luck Wheel Int. and all those who're sticking it out. See you down the road at a VAC or Forum function.

If they had a crying Wally emoticon I'd use it.

Paula
I am hanging around to see if the delegates decide to give the current EC7 their pink slips in the perfected revision and maintain the delegate system and the methods for making amendments to the constitution. Once there is confidence and integrity to the system taking one amendment at a time should be most beneficial and productive. It was interesting what Gene had to say about the bundling of changes and the advantages of thoroughly investigating individual initiatives. It doesn't seem to me that the constitution was broken but rather that there were and are some that will not be held accountable to follow fair procedure. You cannot make a deal in your favor with the unscrupulous.
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:11 PM   #671
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Some support

In our Region 9 President's newsletter for April, President C. C. Gartman comes out strongly against adoption of the new constitution. Posted on wbregion9.org
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:12 PM   #672
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One of the most (maybe the most on this thread) snarky posters appears to have taken to sending PM's rather than post openly because he knows such stuff gets deleted by the mods when he posts it. I got one criticizing something I posted but having nothing but bald faced allegations and telling me since I am not a member, I should have nothing to say.

So, at least by that person's view of things, anyone contemplating joining, or wanting to see how this works out, or having some thoughts about how things could work better, is uninvited to this or any other WBCCI thread. It would appear, therefore, that the WBCCI is an exclusive club and outsiders are unwelcome unless they keep very quiet. I guess those are Lawrence Welk attitudes.

I don't think this type of person actually represents the other WBCCI members who post on this thread and maybe they should try to control this self appointed spokesperson who does little to help the cause and only knows: attack, attack, attack. It's really quite tedious. Maybe he should be the 2nd person I put on "ignore"; the only other one I did seems to have recently disappeared I am told and maybe it'll work for #2. I would hate to see mods having to police PM's too.

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