WBCCI New Constitution

[rideair]

Doug,

You guys from Canada always seem to have the best ideas.

[wkerfoot]

Howie,

The most recent posting on the forum you referenced is April 6, 2011. When will this additional information be posted?

Bill

Originally Posted by HowieE

I am please to comment that I spoke at a local unit rally this weekend giving a brief history of the Revised Constitution and an outline of the key points it presents.

My pleasure comes from the fact that while the members of that unit have not been regular posters on this subject they have as a group seen through the array of misinformation frequently posted here by none and or disenfranchised members.

There is hope for the WBCCI as long as the membership is not swayed but such misinformation.

Those members who wish additional information on this subject without the injection of misleading comments can sign on as a member to vbulletin.covvo.com , thread Revision.

The Revision Committee members stand ready to respond to any members questions or comments made to that site.



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[LI Pets]

Bill, you will see them this week.

[rideair]

Howie,

I’m with you about all the misinformation being posted here on the forums. Is there anyway we can get some of the members of the Revision Committee to stop doing this on the forums?

And now I hear they have moved on to visiting Units doing the same thing!

Sad, just sad.

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by rideair

Howie,

I’m with you about all the misinformation being posted here on the forums. Is there anyway we can get some of the members of the Revision Committee to stop doing this on the forums?

And now I hear they have moved on to visiting Units doing the same thing!

Sad, just sad.

Paul

As I mentioned above the unit I spoke at had already come to the conclusion that most of the info posted here was misleading. The difference was they were referring to the information that you and those posting with you had been posting and commented as such before I spoke.

I received no objectionable questions during or after my talk and in fact received several comments of thanks afterwards.

You repeatedly comment that ALL POWER will remain in the hands of the IBT. Please consider the Metro NY amendment as passing before you state that again.

Another who has for years campaigned for 1m1v is now saying that is not the way to go. What changed? Just because it is not now his idea should not change the effectiveness of that privilege.

Another who wished to be nominated from the floor seams to miss the fact that the new Constitution clearly makes way for ANYONE to nominate before the publication of candidates in the BB with those so nominated having full access to space in the BB. And those nominated from the floor will be on the ballot but admittedly with a difficult and short campaign

Overlooking or just plain omitting these points while they are available for others to read may be the reason members are not accepting your arguments.

Oh by the way this Revision Committee was not formed by the IBT. A frequently mentioned point of misinformation. It was formed by the IP.

The comments from the Constitution Chairman are in themselves misleading in that he only asked for the Committee to be increased to 3 members on the first of March and then never included them in any discussions and the referring to THE CONSTITUTIONAL COMMITTEE in his report while not providing the signatures of those recently named to that Committee.

If you read the Constitution the Constitution Committee has the responsibility to review amendments and amendments only. That Committee whether 1 or 3 members could at best offer an opinion as a member or members and not a recommendation as a standing Committee.


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[rideair]

Howie,

I “NEVER” was behind 1M1V. I was behind giving “MAL’s” the right to vote which are two “VERY” different things.

It is this committee that has combined the two.

So by you going out and saying that I was behind 1M1V is a FLAT OUT LIE!!!!

Please stop the LIES!!!!!

You are the one putting out “misinformation”.

As for the “Bylaws”, I have one question for you, Bob or the man on the moon.

“IF” in the process of voting for the New Constitution the “Metro NY Amendment” IS NOT passed to be included, who will control the “BYLAWS”??

Who will have control under it’s current form?

Can you guarantee me “100%” the Metro NY Amendment will be included in the final vote?

[HowieE]

Sorry if my writing was a bit unclear. If you had read this statement in the first paragraph (The difference was they were referring to the information that you and those posting with you) you might have realized I was referring to others with the use of the word "Another"

I will try to be more explicit in the use of my vague references.

I can't guarantee anything. I can only hope reasonable people will see and grasp the potential. This Revised Constitution presents the membership with a vehicle to change what many have been questioning for years. If it fails we can always fall back on your idea of asking the IBT to change their spots.


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[LI Pets]

Virtually every Article and Section has been changed in some manner – from editorial changes to complete rewrites. The following are some of the highlights:


· We have gone back to our club roots and replaced the Code of Ethics with a Standard of Conduct that is positive, that further enshrines the Fun, Fellowship and Adventure of WBCCI.

Eliminating the grievance committee


· The proposal is based on a leaner WBCCI structure, with a smaller Executive Committee and a smaller regional structure resulting in a smaller IBT. Saving about $20,000 in travel expenses.


· We are shortening the term of office for region officers and lengthening the term for the International Treasurer and Recording Secretary, for purposes of continuity.

· We are proposing to use direct member voting for election of officers and for future amendments to our Constitution while retaining a deliberative forum for discussing key issues.


· We are giving greater flexibility in setting dates for the International Rally and, since with direct member voting there will be no Delegates, we will have fewer meetings at the rally, allowing more opportunity for Fun, Fellowship and Adventure.


· We are proposing that MALs be given more rights within the Club, such as the right to vote and hold office in Intra-Clubs and at the International level.


· There is a simplified and streamlined process for any future amendments to the Constitution and Standard of Conduct that will be the same for all, no matter where the proposed amendment originates.


· One thing that is new is that WBCCI will be able to use electronic means to do any and all of its business, as may be appropriate.


Our current Constitution doesn’t allow that,this is a new way for the club to conduct its affairs.


This proposed constitution truly is a new document and a new way for WBCCI to conduct its affairs.


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[JStanley]

Many might have thought that the inclusion of the PIP & CBL chair’s letter among the six documents was interesting reading, if not persuasive.

1. Did the IP infringe upon or usurp the CBL chairman’s rights by appointing the special bylaws and constitution committee? Doesn’t Don S have a valid complaint?

2. Does the absence of a rebuttal or challenge to refute the statements in Don’s letter by any club official demonstrated their acquiescence? Where do they stand? Or are their opposing faction within the hierarchy?

3. Why is the club’s hierarchy silent? Why aren’t more involved to the extent of trying to mediate or help resolve the issues? Have they been told to maintain a low profile? The Membership Chairman is one of the few speaking out and doing an outstanding job of promoting fun and fellowship.

4. The IP’s letter in this month’s BB makes no mention of the constitution revision and that important “caucus’ meeting which he will chair. Does his silence on the CBL chairman’s letter mean acquiescence, that is, that he is in agreement with Don S. and will be honor bound to uphold the current constitution? I recall that prior to the mid-winter meeting the IP said he was honor bound to follow the constitution. The current constitution and the bylaws are still in effect until they get changed according to the rules.

[rideair]

Bob, you said on the 1M1V thread


Quote:
I'll speak to the CBL question, in word NO, his report did NOT contain recommendations per se, they were his personal opinions, only opinions, not based on facts..

But, in Don S. letter about the New Constitution he writes:

"It is to be noted that instead of a “blue ribbon” committee of knowledgeable and experienced members from a cross section of our organization to develop a new Constitution that meets the Ohio Code and the wishes and desires of our entire membership, the committee who developed this document represented primarily only a small segment of the interests of our membership. In fact, since there were no members of the Constitution and Bylaws Committee on this committee, it was in violation of Bylaws Article III, Section 8, and Robert’s Rules of Order (10th edition, page 474, lines 28 through 30) from the beginning: “A special committee may not be appointed to perform a task that falls within the assigned function of an existing standing committee”. This task was not an emergency requiring minimum time and bypassing the wishes and input of the entire membership. This violation was reported at the July 5, 2010 IBT Meeting when the forming committee for this new Constitution was originated, but was not heeded."



This really does not sound like "his opinion".

Sounds like the whole thing should become a dead issue based on the "facts" stated above in Don S. report or someone need's to file a "Grievance" against this guy for lying about the current IP and Revision Committee.

So, if the very committee that was formed to re-write the Constitution was not done following the Constitution, how can anything they do be taken seriously and be voted on by the membership?

Maybe a delegate needs to point this out at the delegates meeting and call for this whole thing to be removed from the agenda, not voted on and thrown onto the scrap pile of past tried WBCCI changes that has come down from "Special Committees" like the "Name Change" and "MOHO" issue.

It appears someone did not follow the rules and this thing should be shutdown now.

[LI Pets]

Yes it's his opinion, "assigned function of an existing standing committee"

The assigned duties of that committee only referrer to amendments, this was a Revision not an amendment.

Big differenceand not an assigned functionwhich is why when his objected was raised back in July it was over ruled.It should be noted that Don S. is not a certified parliamentarian as is Dona G.The entire letter screams sour grapes perhaps revenge for what may be in his mind his right, but was not.

Assuming arguendo for a moment do you think based on his writing here and looking at the Denco report of his that a NEW set of bylaws would have come forth.

He wants the grievance committee, he like the bylaws they way they are I think the EC recognized that which is why he was not asked to participate, he exemplifies the "old school" thinking they wanted to change.

How is it within his duties to question Ohio law, he's not a lawyer is he?
How is it that his letter was dated 3-18 referring to open questions about those Ohio laws when the clubs lawyer found the Revision in compliance with the law on 3-11, which he had.

Did he ignore the legal opinion, did he forget, did he really write it before 3-11 and just date it when it needed to go to HQ on the 18th?

Just who are the “blue ribbon” members in this club?elitism the attitude that government should be by those who consider themselves superior to others by virtue of intelligence, social status, or greater accomplishment.The belief or practice that government should be by a self-appointed group who consider themselves superior to those governed by virtue of their higher birth.

Ok, Paul kick step behind him!

You said you read the Revision 10+ times, perhaps you need to take an
un-bias read of Don's last two opinions.


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[rideair]

"Ok, Paul kick step behind him!

You said you read the Revision 10+ times, perhaps you need to take an
un-bias read of Don's last two opinions."

No, I will not "kick step" behind him and his views, nor will I "kick step" behind you and your views.

I would rather take a true "un-bias" look at the subject and make up my own mind on what I think is best. There are a few left in life that know "how" to think instead of being told "what" to think.

There are parts of the New Constitution I do "agree" with. Cutting the number of Regions/areas down, getting rid of the 3rdVP, I think is a good idea. The rest for me, I don't agree with.

I don't agree with the "Member Caucus", date changes for International, the way 1M1V is being done, going from Regions to Areas, getting rid of the delegates, etc...
For me, there's just not enough good stuff to even work with in an amendment process before the vote. But that's me. I'm not asking you to agree with me, nor will I be able to change your view. Not saying I'm right, your wrong, I just think in the end the changes that you and the committee came up with will do more harm than good and there are problems with it as written that are to many to fix in a single Delegates meeting for 1,2,3 days.

It appears there have been problems with the whole process since the day the committee was created as pointed out by Don.S. Again, not saying he's right, but he has a very good point that many would agree with and say there are hairs being split when someone say's it's a "Revision" not an "Amendment" thus not needing the CBL as part of it. There still plenty of areas in the New Constitution that are "word for word" like the current one. If you were to try and say this is a "new" body of work in the real word, claim it as your own, you would be faced with a copyright" lawsuit and you would loose in court saying it was a "Revision" and did not need the OK of the owner.

[LI Pets]

WBCCI Members,

The following information, from the Constitution Revision Committee, is to address various questions about the proposed Revised WBCCI Constitution.

What is a Revised Constitution?
1. It is NOT an amendment of the current Constitution.
2. It IS proposed extensive changes to the Constitution that are scattered throughout and make this an entirely NEW Constitution. This is the definition that is stated on page 575 of the WBCCI Parliamentary Authority, Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised current edition (RONR).
3. This proposed Revised Constitution, following the current Constitution rules, will be presented by the International President to the Delegates for their consideration. It was developed by a Special Committee created by the Executive Committee and appointed by the President following RONR, page 549. This Special committee and the Executive Committee refined this proposed Revision, which is the document with the line numbers.

How will the Delegates discuss the proposed Revision?
1) Each Article and Section will be opened for discussion and amendment, one at a time in order.
2) Any Delegate can offer an amendment (change) to the part being discussed.
3) Amendments need to be in writing. (More on amendments in a following question)
4) After all the sections are discussed and voted on, the entire document as amended will be opened for a final discussion and amendment. After that is completed, the final vote will be taken on the Revision.

HOW IS THE PROPOSED CONSTITUTION ADOPTED/REJECTED?
1. Following RONR page 553, the vote required to adopt a proposed Revision as amended is the same as that required to amend the current Constitution. For WBCCI that is 2/3 by a roll call vote.
2. The current Constitution remains in effect until a proposed Revised Constitution is adopted. If adopted, the Revised Constitution immediately becomes effective as the Constitution.
3. However, there may be some parts that require time to implement, or transition to, so some provisions have to be made for this transition. These provisions are called "provisos".
4. Since the adopted Constitution takes effect immediately, the provisos need to be adopted prior to the adoption of the Constitution or as "attached provisos".
5. The provisos are not a part of the Constitution; and, as soon as they are fulfilled, they are no longer attached.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO MAKE AN AMENDMENT?
1) Proposed amendments have to be in writing. There needs to be four (4) copies, one for the Presiding Officer, one for the Parliamentarian, one for the Computer Services for display on the screen so that the other Delegates can see it, and one for the person making the amendment. The original will go to the International Recording Secretary for the records.

2) Amendment forms and copying equipment will be available in the Office at the International Rally and during the Delegates Meeting.

3) The Parliamentarian will be available in the Office if any Delegate would like to check on the wording and form to present their amendment appropriately.

4) If possible, any proposed amendments should be given to the International Recording Secretary before the Delegates Meeting. She will be in the Office as soon as it is open. That way the Presiding Officer will be aware that a Delegate wants to propose an amendment; and, he will be sure to recognize the Delegate who wants to make an amendment. The Delegates have the right to make amendments from the floor; but, because they need to be in writing and copies need to be made, this could take some time.

5) Each proposed amendment will be voted on by "aye" and "no" or a show of hands, or a standing count or whatever is needed.

6) A majority adopts an amendment.

7) After all the sections of the Proposed Revision have been discussed and any amendments voted on, the entire document, as amended, will be opened for any further amendments that the Delegates want to make.

8) When there are no further amendments, the proposed Revision, as amended, will be voted on by a Roll Call Vote with 2/3 needed for adoption.

9) One thing to keep in mind is that the current Constitution is NOT open for amendment during this process. Also, the proposed Revision is NOT an amendment of the current Constitution. If any Delegate wants to have any of the wording from the current Constitution in the proposed Revision, the Delegate will need to propose that wording as an amendment to the Revision. As with any other amendment, it will need to be adopted by the Delegates before it becomes part of the proposed Revision.

10) The document with the lines numbered is the document that is the proposed Revision with the provisos. The numbers can be used to more easily identify the place that a Delegate wants to propose to amend (change). This is the document that will be open for discussion and amendment.

11) The document with the three (3) columns is a comparison between the current Constitution and the proposed Revision. This may help the members see where changes are being made in the proposed Revision.





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[rideair]

Bob,

Since you don't know what's going to be in the final version of the "New Constitution",

Who, what, when, where, how are these created?

Since the adopted Constitution takes effect immediately, the provisos need to be adopted prior to the adoption of the Constitution or as "attached provisos".

[Pahaska]

Originally Posted by rideair

Bob,

Since you don't know what's going to be in the final version of the "New Constitution"

Who, what, when, where, how are these created?

More slight of hand?

Can you say "pig in a poke?"

[Nuvite-F]

Originally Posted by Pahaska

Can you say "pig in a poke?"

. . . So. . . is the Delegates Meeting going to be a pig roast?

(Which would be better than certain other barnyard animal figures of speech that come to mind. . .)

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[rideair]

Today, I got an email stating the samething that Bob just posted from WBCCI HQ.

WBCCI Members,

The following information, from the Constitution Revision Committee, is to address various questions about the proposed Revised WBCCI Constitution. etc... etc... etc..


I have a statement/question.

Statement:

Since the Revision Committee has now been allow to use the email address of the WBCCI to send out “official” emails telling us why and how thing will happen and Norm telling us how great it is and why it was needed.

Question:

Can members who think the New Constitution is a bad idea and the process is wrong have the WBCCI HQ send out official emails for us stating our point of view and why it should not be passed?

[LI Pets]

Originally Posted by rideair

Bob,

Since you don't know what's going to be in the final version of the "New Constitution",

Originally Posted by rideair

Who, what, when, where, how are these created?

Since the adopted Constitution takes effect immediately, the provisos need to be adopted prior to the adoption of the Constitution or as "attached provisos".

First let's be clear on what a proviso is so as not to have you and John Irwin intimate it is a big bad boggy man.

They are merely provisions during the transition of old to new, enacting same. RONR p. 578.


When the Revision is adopted, there will be areas that will need to be transitioned into over time. There will be a set of procedures that will be attached to the Constitution to give time lines for this to happen. Once each transition is completed, that procedure will be deleted from print. Each of these is called a "proviso". These are already included in the three column pdf, here

However, if amendments not known if adopted additional provisos may need to be added upon the vote of the delegates.





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[HowieE]

Paul

You and many others are still having a problem excepting that the Revision Committee is an appointed Committee appointed by the IP and as such their business is official. They did not misuse the E Mail system of Headquarters but rather Headquarters sent out that e mailing as official business.

As one who has received a cease and desist letter, with respect to using the membership e mail list, from the Clubs Lawyers I would assume those opposed will not have access to this e mail system. However if you do not accept this you can always call HQ and request they E Mail on your behalf.

Several unit have requested information on this Constitutional change. Some units have asked for someone with knowledge on the subject come and speak to the unit. The Committee is responding as best they can but are limited by time and distance so alternative methods are being used to get the word out. Your unit had such a presentation last week, you missed it.

Under the New Constitution it is assumed members will have greatly improved access to communicate within the Club. Publication of none Nominating Committee candidates will have access to the BB. Hopefully there will be a Forum set up for members to openly discuss the Club. You loose sight of the fact that the IP had the controversial marketing tool of a used Airstream salesman, masking as an Airstream Forum, closed when advised of it's actions.

I for one am prepared to accept criticism if the Revised Constitution is passed and deemed a failure after reasonable time. Are you prepared to accept responsibility if the Club remains governed by the policies you so vehemently opposed while in unit leadership and continues it's descent?

One of us is going to right.




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[LI Pets]

Originally Posted by rideair

I have a statement/question.

Statement:

Since the Revision Committee has now been allow to use the email address of the WBCCI to send out “official” emails telling us why and how thing will happen and Norm telling us how great it is and why it was needed.

Question:

Can members who think the New Constitution is a bad idea and the process is wrong have the WBCCI HQ send out official emails for us stating our point of view and why it should not be passed?

I realize you have not asked one question pertaining to the Revision directly to the committee for some reason only being vocal herein playing to your band of naysayers.

That being said, why ask here, you know very well how to call HQ for that.

If you want to save a dime, just email the full committee with your statement, position, questions and reasons you feel it is wrong.

In case you mis placed it WBCCIrevision@Gmail.com



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