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Old 03-29-2011, 02:08 PM   #491
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Welcome, Kerry -

It will be very helpful to have you posting regularly so that misunderstandings can be cleared up quickly - before they can take on a life of their own.

Thanks for jumping into the pool.

Pat
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Old 03-29-2011, 02:27 PM   #492
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Kerry and all:

I to hope to keep this a civil and beneficial as possible!

I guess first off, the proposal is not "out" as far as I'm concerned. Those responsible for it have elected to wait until the absolute deadline to publish it. In my business, if I desire to have a positive outcome with a governing body, I do everything in my power to get the required documents to them in a timely fashion. This has not happened. Will President Norm, Paralmentarian Donna, or C&BL Chair Don disallow this action if the documentation is not distributed on time? Other motions have been dismissed over such technicalities.

I do understand our history of using "the Airstream RV Association". I also know that taglines probably don't need defined in a corporate constitution. In fact, doing so relieves the ability to freshen it up to a new possibility.

Obviously, Art VI, Sec 4 is not new either. For several years, a majority of membership have clearly defined their wish of the WBCCI being an Airstream only club. If the intent of this constitutional amendment is to reflect the concerns of the general membership, then perhaps a ground breaking revision is in order. Simply remove any language that allows for regular membership without ownership. Why is this so difficult to understand? I do realize that this is a self-limited membership problem. So be it. This is an Airstream club.

Your description of how we are to conduct a final vote on the surface sounds reasonable. May I ask that you please provide me documentation on what the proposed procedure is modeled on? I keep hearing terms such as "new constitution" and similar. I don't believe our current constitution has provisions for wholesale replacement in place.

What makes this situation so unique that adoption of individual amendments is not permissable? It seems to me we have much better chance of passing this partially than completely. What's the downside?
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Old 03-29-2011, 02:46 PM   #493
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I guess first off, the proposal is not "out" as far as I'm concerned. Those responsible for it have elected to wait until the absolute deadline to publish it. In my business, if I desire to have a positive outcome with a governing body, I do everything in my power to get the required documents to them in a timely fashion. This has not happened. Will President Norm, Paralmentarian Donna, or C&BL Chair Don disallow this action if the documentation is not distributed on time? Other motions have been dismissed over such technicalities.
Dan it was not only the revision that needed be distributed according to the protocols, there were several other documents that needed to go out with at the same time which needed to be drafted, not as simple as just sending out the Revision.

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What makes this situation so unique that adoption of individual amendments is not permissable? It seems to me we have much better chance of passing this partially than completely. What's the downside?
each article will be voted/amended individually, this is called in seriatim.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:02 PM   #494
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RonH,

So, I’ll ask the question now that everyone has had a chance to go read the WBCCI “By-Laws”(provided via the link above), and has read Sec. 3 of the “New Constitution” that everyone is so gunho about.

Where is all the money/power and rules controlled in the WBCCI and “who” has the power to control those rules? Answer: In the WBCCI “By-Laws” and even under the “New Constitution” the IBT/EC7 controls them.

Give that power to the membership and the needed changes can be done to move this club forward.
Ron

As another member of the Revision Committee I would like to also jump into the discussion of the proposed constitution, not "new constitution", something none of us could do under Roberts Rules during the deliberations.

Please understand that the revision proposal is just that and it is possible to amend any article of the proposal before any vote is taken by the Delegates to accept the revised constitution as amended. Some of the issues being raised by yourself and others are ones the committee struggled with. We decided we would try and keep the constitution as clean as possible and encourage modification, as appropriate, by the Delegate review process. Additionally, some things are better handled by the Bylaws where they can be modified more easily rather than having to modify the constitution. If this proposed revision is passed the next necessary thing will be a complete revision of the Bylaws and with any luck that document will be reduced in size significantly. Having said this, if there is an amendment to modify the Bylaws article to the proposed constitution it will be up to the Delegates to approve it.

I am encouraged by your reference to giving power to the membership as the changes being proposed for MAL's, voting, nominations and amending the constitution specifically do that. I am glad you support this position.

Tom
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:14 PM   #495
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As a Unit President, may I warmly welcome the revision committee members to "the table"!

Thank you for your valuable input and your hard work so far in the process.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:15 PM   #496
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Let's make the next 500 posts valuable!
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:28 PM   #497
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. . .if there is an amendment to modify the Bylaws article to the proposed constitution it will be up to the Delegates to approve it.
Please elucidate. As I understand it, under the proposed constitution,

1. The IBT retains sole authority over the Bylaws (as they have now), and

2. The Delegates no longer exist.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:31 PM   #498
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My primary concerns are as follows:
1. Elimination of the Delegate system removes the ability of the membership to collaborate and over-rule the IBT. Discussions at the unit level BEFORE a vote, provides an opportunity for discussion and collaboration. If a member is asked to vote with only one side of the story presented, he is much more likely to vote as the leadership would like.

2. 1M1V is better accomplished by allowing MALs to vote individually and have those added to the totals at the Delegates Meeting.

3. Final authority on Bylaws must rest with the membership! Incorporate Forrest's amendment into this change. Make the annual "Caucus" the body for interpretation of the Bylaws.

4. I am still misreading the IBT voting. How many votes for the EC and 5 for the Areas?

5. Why do we need a Nominating Committee? It is a simple matter to confirm qualifications and can be done in Jackson Center.

6. I agree with removing the July 4th as a mandatory part of the International Rally, however the IBT meeting in July should either be part of the International or held as part of an Area Rally. Don't add another costly gathering to the budget.

I agree with the bulk of the changes, but believe the elimination of Delegates eliminates feedback to the IBT.

Proposed changes for the delegates?
I posted the words above earlier in the thread. I am also a UP and would love to vote FOR a revision. I believe we can craft an acceptable document with many answer from those who wrote the revision and perhaps a few changes in from the floor.

Let's see if we can agree BEFORE the Delegates Meeting!
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:18 PM   #499
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Let's see if we can agree BEFORE the Delegates Meeting!
That would be great, but. . . how many delegates do we have participating in this forum. . . half a dozen, maybe? And how many are there going to be at the Delegates Meeting. . . 120, give or take? So we're looking at, what, 5% representation here?

And the delegates are duty bound to vote as instructed by their units; with the C&BL committee officially recommending that the revised constitution be rejected, it may be an uphill battle.

And finally, as I asked in an earlier post which was deleted, how much time has been scheduled for this Constitutional Convention--for that is what it is--at the International?

And yes, I know, I'm negative, negative, negative. It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:23 PM   #500
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And the delegates are duty bound to vote as instructed by their units; with the C&BL committee officially recommending that the revised constitution be rejected, it may be an uphill battle.
that really is not the case we went thru that issue, more info will be forth coming on that.

Quote:
And finally, as I asked in an earlier post which was deleted, how much time has been scheduled for this Constitutional Convention--for that is what it is--at the International?
A second session is being worked into the schedule if needed and third if needed.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:42 PM   #501
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We aren't limited to this venue. We can contact other units by e-mail or phone. W do have contact information available to us.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:44 PM   #502
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Please elucidate. As I understand it, under the proposed constitution,

1. The IBT retains sole authority over the Bylaws (as they have now), and

2. The Delegates no longer exist.
.
The proposed constitution contains the language suggested in Roberts regarding Bylaws. However, it is a proposal and if the Delegates want to propose language to modify the article they will have the opportunity. The article can be deliberated and modified at that time.

While currently the Delegates attend the Delegates meeting and may comment on motions in the seminar, they have no input other than the vote on the nominating committees slate or a vote if there is a proposed amendment to the constitution. If we go to a 1M1V on the nominees for International office and constitutional amendments the delegates current role, aside from the seminar where any member may comment, would no longer exist. Deliberations on proposed amendments and other issues that might be placed on the caucus agenda would take place in a members caucus and within units and in forums such as this. The originator of any amendment would/should be guided in the structure of their final amendment by such discussion before the membership would vote upon it.

The issue of Bylaw modification is a serious one and deserves serious thought as to how it would be implemented. However, through time having such a mechanism in the Bylaws allows for a faster response to a need for change. Items placed in constitutions are, rightly so, much more difficult to alter for the benefit of the membership.

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Old 03-29-2011, 05:14 PM   #503
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I am going to support the new constitution and will ask our unit to vote for it. One thing to remember that WBCCI is a social club with only about 6000 members. It is not going to grow back to 30000 no matter what is done. It is cheap to belong to.
And totally optional. So I do not think this document has a enough importance to get upset over.
I could have lived fine with the old document. I like the new one a little better. I guess I am old fashioned, but I like the Electorial College and was okay with delegates. But for the few members we have the 1member 1 vote policy is fine.
Hey, it is not the health care package. Its fine. It can and will be amended.
I do not like what I understand as Forrests amendment. I prefer the 1m1v to delegates having to pass or ratify what the IBT decides.
How everbody can get so worked up about $15 for the local club or MAL is simply beyond my comprehension.
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Old 03-29-2011, 07:22 PM   #504
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Tom (BugDoc)

My post earlier today (#489) did not address any of the issues. I only commented on the need for change and made a plea for civil discourse.
The tone and content of the other posts have been great. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

My thanks to the members of the committee who I know spent considerable time on this project as well as absorbing more than a few bucks on phone bills and mileage. The true spirit of volunteerism is alive and well and deserves respect, even if one does not agree with their product.

Ron
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