Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-26-2011, 02:31 PM   #477
Silver Mist
 
LI Pets's Avatar
 
1977 31' Sovereign
Riverhead , New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,008
Images: 28
Howie our posts crossed, you my friend are reading it correctly.

The MAL's get a vote.

The folks that say they don't, need to read it again.
__________________

__________________
Bob
'77 Sovereign Intl 31' CB
WBCCI R2 Rep VAC 11411 Metro NY VP

LI Pets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 03:08 PM   #478
Rivet Master
 
Gene's Avatar
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction , Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
But I also said the drafting was such that it could be misinterpreted. Misinterpretations of tightly worded sentences are common and it happens to all of us. Quick readings of an entire document cause lots of problems, but everyone does it too. Our vision does not strictly see what is in front of us, but what our brain expects to see plus what is in front of us, so if you are sure the drafters are out to screw everyone, you may well read things that way. Slow, careful reading is necessary.

The sentence: "A MAL shall possess all the rights and privileges of the club, except the right to vote or hold office in a Unit or Area." can be interpreted by ignoring the comma to deny the right to vote. When drafting you have to anticipate human error. It should have been written: "A MAL shall possess all the rights and privileges of the club including but not limited to the right to vote in WBCCI elections, however a MAL is not a member of a Unit or Area and may not vote in Unit or Area elections or hold office in Units or Areas." This may not be perfect because I haven't seen the whole document (and don't want to), and is twice as long as the original, meaning if I wrote it, the Constitution would be 90 pages long.

More important, as I already posted, is that the entire process is flawed and leads to potentially bad outcomes.

Gene
__________________

__________________
Gene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 03:21 PM   #479
Rivet Master
 
HowieE's Avatar
 
1991 34' Excella
Princeton , New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,813
Images: 12
Gene

That is one He-- of a powerful comma. It is there and it should be read as such. This committee was not Paid by the word, I hope we have come beyond that.

Had this been disseminated via Twitter there would have been lost of reason to question the intent.
__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles

HowieE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 04:23 PM   #480
Rivet Master
 
RickDavis's Avatar

 
1961 24' Tradewind
1969 29' Ambassador
1970 21' Globetrotter
Jamestown , Tennessee
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,781
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugdoc View Post
The author quoted above seems to be unaware of the committees request for suggestions and comments from the membership. The few that were provided were, in most instances incorporated, where appropriate, into the revision.
Don S. and others are saying there was no opportunity for input from the members. There is no doubt that input was asked for here on the forums.
I think input may have been asked for other places also although no banner ads were in the Blue Beret.

I sent in 4 pages myself, poorly written, as they were dashed of during a rally..

Every thing I sent in was addressed in the new document with the exception of the MAL surcharge. Several committee members sent an e mail acknowledging they had received my input.

No complaints about no opportunity to express opinions here
__________________
Rick Davis 1602 K8DOC
61 tradewind, plus a few others
13 Ram 2500 TD
99 Dodge TD 577K miles

RickDavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 04:30 PM   #481
Rivet Master
 
wkerfoot's Avatar
 
1979 23' Safari
1954 29' Liner
Orange , California
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,667
I hope that this is not a hijack, but what do those who complain about the; MAL surcharge think that MALs should pay in addition to the International dues?

Bill
__________________
Bill Kerfoot, WBCCI/VAC/CAC/El Camino Real Unit #5223
Just my personal opinion
1973 Dodge W200 PowerWagon, 1977 Lincoln Continental, 2014 Dodge Durango
1979 23' Safari, and 1954 29' Double Door Liner Orange, CA

http://billbethsblog.blogspot.com/
wkerfoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 04:41 PM   #482
Rivet Master
 
HowieE's Avatar
 
1991 34' Excella
Princeton , New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,813
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkerfoot View Post
I hope that this is not a hijack, but what do those who complain about the; MAL surcharge think that MALs should pay in addition to the International dues?

Bill
That is clearly not an issue that should be crowding this thread at this time. Lets get them Rights Within the Club first and then the membership rather than the Spendthrifts who need the money for their use can decide that issue. I am sure once granted voting rights the MALs will not vote to increase their dues.

They probability shouldn't have to pay any thing other than the Club dues because that is what they chose to be a member of. If they choose to attend a rally I would assume they would pay the same rally fee as any other member in good standing
__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles

HowieE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 05:14 PM   #483
Rivet Master
 
Forrest's Avatar
 
1986 32' Excella
Aurora , Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 636
Images: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
The Constitutional Convention of 1787 did meet in secret and was pretty good in keeping secrets during the process.
Gene
Yes, the 1787 Delegates deliberations were behind closed doors, but that isn't what I was refering to. The solutions that the Delegates debated, amended and adopted were discussed widely for a year prior to the Constitutional Convention.

And while some historians say that the Convention was held "in secret" it really wasn't. Afterall, how much of a secret can it be considering that Madison took extensive notes of their deliberations and those notes today tell us what transpired. Likewise, other delegates kept journals or wrote letters to their families and state governments.

But we're comparing apples to oranges. The Revision Committee isn't a representation of delegates. No Unit or Region put them in place, and it can reasonably be asked who they represent. I believe the Revision Committee largely, if not wholly, represents the interests of a special interest group - namely, Defend Wally. I say this because only Dona Garner wasn't a member or contributor to Defend Wally, whereas three of the others were, and the one remaining a sympathizer.
__________________
Forrest
Out for coffee!
Forrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2011, 11:22 PM   #484
Site Team
 
Janet H's Avatar

 
1964 26' Overlander
1964 19' Globetrotter
Eastern , Washington
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,447
Images: 90
Several recent posts have been removed (again) from this thread. For a time this evening this thread was removed from view as well. Since this topic seems to draw heated debate and the topic is of interest to many, it has been restored but will remain closed for a time until tempers cool. Until this thread is reopened do not start another discussion on this topic.

Once again members are reminded that you are guests here at AIR and if you choose to post, those posts must be in accordance with our prescribed rules; the same rules that you agreed to when you joined. Do not attack another member and do not post in coercive ways or in anger. Do not makes threats. If you have an issue with a specific member take it elsewhere or use the report post button but DO NOT use AIR as your personal venue to denigrate others.

Peace
__________________
1964 Overlander | '08 Touareg V6
Current Project: 1964 Globetrotter

.
Let's have a polishing party: I'll supply the trailer and buffing supplies. BYOB (bring your own buffer)

AirForums Custom Search
Janet H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2011, 12:14 PM   #485
2 Rivet Member
 
1994 34' Limited
Ottawa , Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 66
Thumbs up

Now that the thread is open again I am looking forward to discussion intended to create more light than heat. We all agree that there has to be change and in the past few years, starting with the Thompson incident, some real mistakes were made. A warmer, more agreeable attitude from the International executive seems called for. And it appears that has begun under the current IP. Lets build on that!

We have before us a proposal for substantial change in a direction that very many members have been yearning for. Lets deal with it. General accusations of bad faith, shooting at the messengers and offering up suggestions of an evil plot on the part of those with whom we do not agree are not in the least helpful. It might be a good thing if the extremists at both ends of the discussion would be quiet for a while. It would be useful if those of us on the wide middle ground would take the time to educate ourselves as to what is really being proposed and share our views in a civil way. A good beginning would be to accept that the words of the new document mean what they say and do not cover a hidden agenda.
__________________
RonH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2011, 12:30 PM   #486
4 Rivet Member
 
damonbeals's Avatar
 
1998 31' Excella 1000
1979 23' Safari
Mooresville , Indiana
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 473
Well said, Norm has stepped forward to help revamp the club, there is only so much a president can do in a one year term. Is this document perfect? No, is any document? I think this is a great first step to overhaul the club and move it forward.

I still don't understand the emotions this has created. If you want to find the negative in anything you can, if you want to find the positive you can. It's up to you to chose.

Damon


Quote:
Originally Posted by RonH View Post
Now that the thread is open again I am looking forward to discussion intended to create more light than heat. We all agree that there has to be change and in the past few years, starting with the Thompson incident, some real mistakes were made. A warmer, more agreeable attitude from the International executive seems called for. And it appears that has begun under the current IP. Lets build on that!

We have before us a proposal for substantial change in a direction that very many members have been yearning for. Lets deal with it. General accusations of bad faith, shooting at the messengers and offering up suggestions of an evil plot on the part of those with whom we do not agree are not in the least helpful. It might be a good thing if the extremists at both ends of the discussion would be quiet for a while. It would be useful if those of us on the wide middle ground would take the time to educate ourselves as to what is really being proposed and share our views in a civil way. A good beginning would be to accept that the words of the new document mean what they say and do not cover a hidden agenda.
__________________
damonbeals is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2011, 01:01 PM   #487
Rivet Master
 
DanB's Avatar
 
1970 23' Safari
2005 30' Classic
1986 31' Sovereign
Lorain , Ohio
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,616
Images: 9
I'm about as middle of the road as you can get on this issue. In particular, I object primarily with the "all or nothing" vote that will conclude the proceedings. I feel it is not necessary and I really need to question the constitutional validity of the process. Let's not throw out the accomplishments of part of the amendments due to the sections that are deemed unwanted.

Your statement "A good beginning would be to accept that the words of the new document mean what they say and do not cover a hidden agenda." is a great concept. Unfortunately, I consider this impossible. An example: what is the true purpose of the article 1, section 1 revision? This is the addition of "It is also known as “the Airstream RV Association”." When did this become an issue needing addressing? This proposed amendment didn't need to happen now. It does not impact the clubs membership or concerns at the moment. This leads me to believe that it is slipped in to make it very convenient to propose by bylaw to use the term "The Airstream Associate" as a primary title instead of WBCCI. Again, this is only one example. Maybe I'm way off base, and I really hope I am. But, I've got an eyebrow raised when I really didn't need to.

OK, that's my personal concern with one issue!

You want discussion? OK, I'll start!

Strike Article VI section 4. Unneeded. No airstream. No regular membership. If you want to be progressive, create a third class of membership "Friends of the WBCCI". Same dues as regular membership, but no rights.
__________________
DanB
________________________________
Proud Member of the Wally Byam Airstream Club #24260

www.campnova.com

The “Ohio Airstreamer -- Informal forum for weekend camping” thread.
DanB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2011, 01:08 PM   #488
Moderator
Commercial Member
 
eubank's Avatar
 
1967 30' Sovereign
Bosque Farms , New Mexico
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanB View Post
... what is the true purpose of the article 1, section 1 revision? This is the addition of "It is also known as “the Airstream RV Association”."
Dan, I agree with you on the Airstream requirement and also wonder about the wording in Art. 1, Sec. 1. It could, however, involving some legal requirement in naming/identifying the association for the IRS or other governmental entity. If in some filed document or another it is so named/identified, then bets are that we'd have to include that name/identification. (But if it's just stuck in there because it would be cool to include it, then it's just more verbosity in an already verbose document.)

But that's just a wild guess at this point. Perhaps someone with more experience and knowledge can jump in at this point.


Lynn
__________________
WBCCI 21043
eubank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2011, 01:22 PM   #489
Rivet Master
 
rideair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,223
New Constitution, Extreme Changes

RonH,

I agree with you 100% as to the extremist comment and thus is the very reason why I do not support the re-writing of the WBCCI which some would say is a extreme way to try and take care of a few small problems with the current WBCCI Constitution. A simple (in the middle) view would be to pass the so called “Forrest Amendment” which gives even more control over the WBCCI “By-Laws” to the membership than the “New Constitution” does moving forward and to pass a simple amendment allowing “MAL’s” the chance to vote and/or hold office by simply allowing them to vote through WBCCI HQ and allowing them to send a delegate to cast their vote. These two “simple” changes are neither extreme nor hard to understand, allows everyone to vote and more oversight on what the IBT/EC7 does or does not do. Remember, things like travel dollars for the IBT/EC7, flags, badges, spending, etc… much of that is controlled by the WBCCI “By-Laws” and not the WBCCI “Constitution”.

There are those that will want you to think you must re-write the “Constitution” to be able to make changes to the “By-Laws” which is 100% wrong. The WBCCI IBT/EC7 has been making changes to the “By-Laws” almost every year (WBCCI Dues, BOT giving lifetime membership to PIP’s, Disciplinary Actions”see how much to that they added on 2010”, The amount of $$$$ each IBT/EC7 member gets, etc….) here’s a link for your review. http://www.wbcci.org/documents/BB%20Bylaws4.pdf You will see were changes have been made for the last 50+ years without re-writing the whole WBCCI Constitution. So those that say you must re-write the Constitution to do that are wrong and that is proved by looking at the current WBCCI "By-Laws".

In my eyes only a few small changes need to be made to the current WBCCI Constitution not the “extreme” change of a total re-write.

Give the membership the power to control the WBCCI “By-Laws” and you control the IBT/EC7 and what they can and cannot do. Which is what everyone “really” wants.

You will find the “New Constitution” does not give that power to the membership it needs to control the IBT/EC7 and their power to control spending and the rules and regulations in the WBCCI “By-Laws”

NEW WBCCI Constitution:

Sec. 3 The IBT shall define the Bylaws and policies of, and shall have full administrative authority in all matters pertaining to the WBCCI and shall exercise general control and supervision of all officers and committees.

So, I’ll ask the question now that everyone has had a chance to go read the WBCCI “By-Laws”(provided via the link above), and has read Sec. 3 of the “New Constitution” that everyone is so gunho about.

Where is all the money/power and rules controlled in the WBCCI and “who” has the power to control those rules? Answer: In the WBCCI “By-Laws” and even under the “New Constitution” the IBT/EC7 controls them.

Give that power to the membership and the needed changes can be done to move this club forward.
__________________
Paul Waddell
rideair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2011, 01:34 PM   #490
2 Rivet Member
 
2006 31' Classic
Kemptville , Ontario
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 17
DanB: I'm a member of the Revision Committee. I've watched these Forums with interest but have refrained from posting during the revision process. Now that the proposal is out, I'm ready to wade back in.

The addition of the phrase "the Airstream RV Association" isn't really new, it just acknowledges what we have printed on our letterhead and envelopes for years. No hidden agenda there. As for Art. VI, Sn. 4: this isn't new either, it extends to MALs the same right as current members have to retain a membership after they no longer travel in an Airstream, if they so choose. The current provision has been used by several members of our Unit to stay as active contributing members. I could see where a MAL who may be active in an Intra-club may want to do the same thing. Why would we push them out the door?

The vote process is what is required for proper procedure (ie RONR). Each article is brought forward, amended if delegates so desire, and voted on. At the end of the process, all delegates will need to take a sober look at the whole package and decide if it is a workable constitution and preferable to what we currently have. If so, vote to accept it and if not, vote to reject it.

I look forward to some good discussions here.

Cheers,
Kerry
__________________

__________________
Kerrbett is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
constitution, wbcci


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.