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Old 03-25-2011, 09:53 PM   #449
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Will the packet give units an idea of how to approach making changes systematically and how the unit delegate should be prepared to present and deliberate with the other delegates at the meeting? There will be a power point presentation also? Just from the time it takes to examine these documents I can imagine you all have worked very long and very hard on this revision and there are a lot of changes that we have been asking for as you have previously mentioned. Even though its release was a matter of some days early I don't think we will be able to know what the final revision will look like until the delegates assemble and redraft or accept or refute it. Or will there be provision to work on it collectively electronically in advance?
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Old 03-25-2011, 10:54 PM   #450
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I agree that there is far too little time to debug this thing. I will strongly advise my unit to turn it down cold. There are too many hidden traps that can not be worked out in time.

Perhaps in another year a workable draft will be in place.
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:08 PM   #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azflycaster View Post
There are several differences between the two documents.
But, LI Pets wrote that the Revision Committee's Constitution wasn't changed? If there are differences who made them?
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:55 PM   #452
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Thumbs down Different logic, same conclusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
The naysayers will hang on every word including those who complained about his thinking in the past.
Some of Chairman Shafer's logic we may not agree with, but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't arrive at the same conclusion.

Especially considering that 1M1V was the raison d'ętre for "direct voting." Yet, Members At Large (MAL) are still left without a vote. Unless I'm misreading the document. So I'll quote the revised constitution, Article VI, Section 3, "A MAL shall possess all the rights and privileges of the club, except the right to vote or hold office in a Unit or Area."

Now, I've raised this point with LI Pets previously, and he hasn't said otherwise. A MAL has NO VOTE. If the Revision Committee wanted them to have a vote, then it would be written in a manner that makes it clear that they do. So, perhaps it might have been worded: A MAL shall possess all the rights and privileges of the club, including the right to vote, but not to hold office in a Unit or Area. Unfortunately, that is NOT the wording.

Yet, giving MAL a vote is the only thing that justifies direct voting because that is the ONLY way a MAL would be able to vote. Without that correlation there is almost no point in adopting the revised constitution.

Ironically, Chairman Shafer is right in observing that there is nothing to prohibit a MAL from holding an International office, such as President, VP, Treasurer, Secretary. But would they then be a voting member of the board? Without a provision to allow a MAL to vote how can they? So, the problem is compounded, and this is just one example of how the Revised Constitution fails.
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Old 03-26-2011, 12:07 AM   #453
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OK, my quick read was too quick!

We have only weeks to develop specific proposed changes OR skip another year with no change.

The delegates have the option of completely re-writing each article. Unfortunately, that isn't practical. The question is, can we agree on a few simple changes to the existing Constitution to address some of the most pressing issues. Keep the items we like from the current Constitution and adopt / revise the proposed changes to improve the document.

This IS a chance to make changes or to do exactly what we have done in prior years.

How about agreeing on a few simple changes and putting these forward as the "perfected" revision?
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Old 03-26-2011, 12:29 AM   #454
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There is something!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbmbstreamer View Post
We have only weeks to develop specific proposed changes OR skip another year with no change...This IS a chance to make changes or to do exactly what we have done in prior years... How about agreeing on a few simple changes and putting these forward as the "perfected" revision?
There is the Denver Colorado Unit Amendment, what just about everyone refers to as "Forrest's Motion." There is a separate thread on that.

As for tweaking the Revised Constitution, that can now only be done by the Delegates at the Annual Meeting. As others have stated, it is very unlikely they could make and agree on all the changes needed to perfect the document. It is a huge task and asking them to do it in one session seems impossible and ill advised to me. I say this from having been a delegate. Do you really want to pressure a hundred or so delegates to perfect something through the motion to amend process in just one sitting (or even in two or three) considering that the document must be approved by majority vote Article by Article, Section by Section?

Remember, the revised constitution has to pass by a 2/3 majority. That in itself is difficult for just one item. There will be other items on the agenda as well, voting to elect officers and Motion 1 for instance.
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Old 03-26-2011, 12:59 AM   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
The CBL committee by Don Shafer has taken it upon himself to release not only his report but an unofficial copy of the constitution to all region presidents circumventing the Executive Committee and established process.
The Executive Committee plays no part in the release of the C&BC Report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
The release of the proposed revision should have been under the authorization of the IP after HQ mailed an official package of documents to the region pres.
Actually, the IP released the proposed revision when he sent it to HQ and from there to the C&BC. Afterall, that revision was the final draft (although you've been saying there is just the one draft).

Yes, it would appear that Chairman Shafer usurped HQ. His report and the proposed revision were supposed to be sent out by the Corporate Manager. To quote Article XVI, Section 3, "Headquarters shall submit copies of this Constitution and Bylaws Committee report to the Unit Presidents with the copies of the proposed amendment(s) distributed in accordance with Sections 1 and 2 of this article." So, are you going to file a grievance?

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It would appear that Mr. Shafer believes he is running WBCCI.
He probably is.
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Old 03-26-2011, 05:02 AM   #456
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While Don S. Does make a some valid points I see it as for the most part as nothing more than a defense of the the " We have always done it this way mindset"
I.E. We need the grievance system. ( might need to kick some one out)
We need the present voting system.
We need all these officers.
The nominating committee is good (because otherwise multiple people may actually have to CAMPAIGN for office.)
WE should take years to accomplish any changes..
I am not sure whether he has a case for him or one of his to be on the committee but I am glad he wasn't.
All I see is a defense of a system that does not work well
It could be taken apart piece by piece here, but I am not sure what it would accomplish.
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Old 03-26-2011, 06:42 AM   #457
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In a vacuum

Bob,

I guess, since I agree with Don S. I’m one of the “naysayers” you talk about. This thing has been riddled with problems since day one and even Don S. points that out. I’m sorry you don’t like, don’t want to hear and will not accept the fact that it’s true, but it is.

But for fun, let’s just take everything you say, think and feel to be true from day one, the committee was formed correctly, you looked for input from the entire membership, etc.., etc.., etc.. Anyone that has responded to RFI/RFP’s for the Federal Government in the past would see automatically, this document was created in a vacuum. I’m not trying to offend you or the committee, yet trying to educate you on the process of which something like this is written. Since you will never listen to me, I would suggest you go get a book on writing RFI’s and RFP’s, work with someone from say a Lockheed, SAIC, General Dynamics or Northrop Grumman that has worked on different writing teams within that organization (outline, draft, pink, red, gold) for a couple of years and you may begin to understand what I’m talking about.

May I ask, did you have an outline team? Draft? Pink? Red? Gold? Lockdown final document? Did each one of those teams release certain writers from the team to then bring in others that had not seen the document in the past, did you bring in people that had nothing to do with the writing for review in the different stages? If you had, things like “MAL voting” would be far clearer than what it is or is not. I have to agree with Forrest, the way I read it, it appears they do not get to vote.

Many would say the document that has been presented would be a “rough draft” and is nowhere near ready. If you would like, I can write-up a summary of problems I see, but it will look a bunch like Don S. which will then again make me a “naysayer” and all I would have done would be to waste a bunch of time doing so.

You’re baby is not ugly; it’s just not ready for a beauty contest and there’s no way to make it pretty enough to where I would want it representing the club.
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Old 03-26-2011, 07:35 AM   #458
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I think several are making comments way too quickly (knee jerk reactions) without taking the time to fully absorb and study this unofficial copy of the Revision without the accompanying documents to be released by HQ next week..


Civility aside, five people busted their collective butts doing this on a voluntary basis, have a little respect at least for the effort even if you don’t like it or fully understand the contents yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pahaska View Post
I agree that there is far too little time to debug this thing.
John you have over 100 days! It takes about a half an hour to read this the first time.

Highlight the areas of concern ask questions, make suggestions.

How many of the 16 Articles concern you? 3, 6, 10

If you have questions or don’t understand the language in a sec. use the new email to ask your questions, the committee will address them.

If it can’t be done in 100 days, a year isn’t going to help.
………………

A MAL shall possess all the rights and privileges of the club, except the right to vote or hold office in a Unit or Area

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Yet, Members At Large (MAL) are still left without a vote. Unless I'm misreading the document. So I'll quote the revised constitution, Article VI, Section 3, "A MAL shall possess all the rights and privileges of the club, except the right to vote or hold office in a Unit or Area."
Now, I've raised this point with LI Pets previously, and he hasn't said otherwise.
Forest yes you’re misreading that sec.
As well as you Paul

All the rights include the right to vote. 1M1V

However, they may not vote or hold office in a unit or area ( region) because they don’t belong to one.

…………

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
But, LI Pets wrote that the Revision Committee's Constitution wasn't changed? If there are differences who made them?
Sorry, I don't follow you and or azflycaster on that comment.


……………………..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
It is a huge task and asking them to do it in one session seems impossible and ill advised to me.
There will be two.

……………

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
The CBL committee by Don Shafer has taken it upon himself to release not only his report but an unofficial copy of the constitution to all region presidents circumventing the Executive Committee and established process.

The Executive Committee plays no part in the release of the C&BC Report.
Not sure I agree.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
The release of the proposed revision should have been under the authorization of the IP after HQ mailed an official package of documents to the region pres.
Actually, the IP released the proposed revision when he sent it to HQ and from there to the C&BC. Afterall, that revision was the final draft (although you've been saying there is just the one draft).
We disagree on that point also.
Forest there is one Revision (draft).

Quote:
Yes, it would appear that Chairman Shafer usurped HQ. His report and the proposed revision were supposed to be sent out by the Corporate Manager. To quote Article XVI, Section 3, "Headquarters shall submit copies of this Constitution and Bylaws Committee report to the Unit Presidents with the copies of the proposed amendment(s) distributed in accordance with Sections 1 and 2 of this article." So, are you going to file a grievance? .
Since he loves the E&GC so much and his actions are bringing disharmony someone should.

If it were up to me I’d fire him or request his resignation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
It would appear that Mr. Shafer believes he is running WBCCI.
He probably is.
He had his turn, he left the club in great shape.
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Old 03-26-2011, 07:45 AM   #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDavis View Post
While Don S. Does make a some valid points I see it as for the most part as nothing more than a defense of the the " We have always done it this way mindset"
I.E. We need the grievance system. ( might need to kick some one out)
We need the present voting system.
We need all these officers.
The nominating committee is good (because otherwise multiple people may actually have to CAMPAIGN for office.)
WE should take years to accomplish any changes..
I am not sure whether he has a case for him or one of his to be on the committee but I am glad he wasn't.
All I see is a defense of a system that does not work well
It could be taken apart piece by piece here, but I am not sure what it would accomplish.


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Old 03-26-2011, 08:27 AM   #460
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We also have at our disposal the capability to also make a list of holes that need to be shored up from legitimate weaknesses that have been pointed out by Don S. As said before there may be plenty of differences of opinion between his recommendation and that of many other individuals, but he also cites chapter and verse, inconsistencies and problematic or ineffectual portions, that can benefit from his criticism and proof reading of the draft. This is a process and not a vote. Consider it brainstorming. You do not have to be hung up on the thumbs up or down as much as it would be wise to use all the information that was offered to strengthen, define and better integrate the changes that most would like to continue to make.

I agree with Forrest about the likihood of getting this done by and on the currently proposed schedule. The process of refining that Rideair brought out can still be employed and now we have the first real bit to sink our teeth into. Don S.'s input should be welcome "testing" in that he gave detailed reasoning to support his findings. Take them for what they are worth and roll up your sleeves rather than sitting back on laurels and start re-working to improve it rather than booing cheering and otherwise refusing to see the value of having a "second opinion" from which to build upon. It isn't over. This release was not the signal of the end but the heralding of the beginning, I remind you. A working process of assimilating and redrafting needs to be up and going full speed asap if we are to make headway and judicious use of our time. Off the bench, this is no spectator sport! You're not done yet. Who better to be in the remix than the original committee members who compiled this revision?
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Old 03-26-2011, 08:36 AM   #461
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All right we have heard from several that were commented against a revision of the Constitution even before it was available for scrutiny. They have challenged the IP authority to have formed the Committee. They have complained all was done in secret forgetting they themselves have been able to comment openly throughout the process. For the most part that openness was wasted on a continual attempt to derail the process.

There has been no absence of the agreement that the Club seriously need reform. Again those that have been fighting so had to derail any attempt to present an avenue for reform are for the most part those that tried so hard to enact reform when they were in a unit Leadership roll.

We now presented with a revised Constitution that provides the greater membership to be counted as individuals and provide for Majority Rule. That Majority will be empowered with the capacity to revise, correct, amend, expand, or change the club as they see fit.

Yes we could take the suggestion that several committees be separately created and go off and write something that represents a Federal approved proposal. That is how we get $600.00 hammers and cost overruns that brake the bank.

Just think if those guys in Philadelphia had called for general comments and 100% acceptance of the population before signing the Declaration of Independence where we would be now. They recognized that they had not solved every concealable problem and provided an avenue for amendments.

Lets concentrate on what this provides and if it does not in fact directly address the every recognized problem that it does provide for a more meaningful means of addressing problems in the future.
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Old 03-26-2011, 08:52 AM   #462
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My primary concerns are as follows:
1. Elimination of the Delegate system removes the ability of the membership to collaborate and over-rule the IBT. Discussions at the unit level BEFORE a vote, provides an opportunity for discussion and collaboration. If a member is asked to vote with only one side of the story presented, he is much more likely to vote as the leadership would like.

2. 1M1V is better accomplished by allowing MALs to vote individually and have those added to the totals at the Delegates Meeting.

3. Final authority on Bylaws must rest with the membership! Incorporate Forrest's amendment into this change. Make the annual "Caucus" the body for interpretation of the Bylaws.

4. I am still misreading the IBT voting. How many votes for the EC and 5 for the Areas?

5. Why do we need a Nominating Committee? It is a simple matter to confirm qualifications and can be done in Jackson Center.

6. I agree with removing the July 4th as a mandatory part of the International Rally, however the IBT meeting in July should either be part of the International or held as part of an Area Rally. Don't add another costly gathering to the budget.

I agree with the bulk of the changes, but believe the elimination of Delegates eliminates feedback to the IBT.

Proposed changes for the delegates?
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