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Old 03-03-2011, 11:45 AM   #337
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A mal without having been a member of a unit before hand would lack the experience of how a unit operates... If they own an sob as a travel trailer they would not be eligible to be a member.
Only if it is a permanent or semi-permanent location to be used by the members as a vacation facility or as a home.
So, your answer is that MAL's don't get to vote or hold office (even though a MAL might be a former President of a Unit or Region), and Yes, members can own SOB.

The revision doesn't specify that the RV is a motorhome or trailer. It doesn't matter which.
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Old 03-03-2011, 11:46 AM   #338
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Rodney,

That is too funny!
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Old 03-03-2011, 11:50 AM   #339
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Carol, I'm trying to reply, but I'm not following your question 100%.
And probably rightly so. I can't even restate my own question. I am wrestling with the unstated mechanics and the concept of just how changes will be made in the future after (if) this new constitution is passed and we no longer have delegates.

Perhaps a concrete example will aid us in examining the procedure from idea to successful passage and the steps involved.

What will be the formula to make changes in the club (after the new constitution is accepted as written?)

Is that clearer? such as: 1. write a motion; 2. submit it to your unit (or what if you are a MAL?); 3. unit vote; 4. submit the motion to the area president...please continue from there. Also will there be an additional alternative to pass a motion?

We currently have two separate avenues to select from as the Constitution and or By-laws allow for us now to utilize, which is quite a great utility and failsafe for members in case the EC does not approve of the proposed change. Although if you listen to PIP Don S. he thinks it is not necessary and should be eliminated. (Why does that bother me SO VERY MUCH?!) This is the same PIP that would not let Forrest's amendment proceed with his recommendation as Forrest is utilizing exactly that method that Don would like us to believe is of no worth to us as a club and should be stricken from the Constitution/Bylaws. BTW Forrest's amendment would give delegates more power if passed. And look, now Forrest's amendmanet has been delayed because of "procedure" and "voila'" a brand new constitution not only surfaces coincidently but also totally eliminates delegates from the equation. Please don't tell me the New Constitution is an EC punt.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:13 PM   #340
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Just do we are all clear, this is the CURRENT constitution wording.


C. Regular Members, who were in good standing when they sold their recreational vehicle manufactured by Airstream, Inc., may, upon request, retain their membership as Regular Members, provided such members do not own another brand of recreational vehicle, except such Regular Members may own another brand of recreational vehicle that is parked in a permanent or semi-permanent location to be used by the members as a vacation facility or as a home. (6/29/96)

Bob, I think you said this section is being deleted. What wording is proposed to allow for a similar circumstance?
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:27 PM   #341
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There have been a lot of questions about how to adopt parts of a constitution/bylaws and how to amend the main motion. The WBCCI constitution/bylaws may have a different system, but, Robert's Rules of Order says:

Someone makes a motion and someone seconds it to put the motion on the floor. I believe this new document will be presented in parts. The chair opens the floor to debate. Anyone can make a motion to amend the motion (called the main motion). That motion to amend needs a second. Then the motion to amend is debated. Sometimes you get a "friendly amendment" to make a small change in a motion. Technically that must be done before a second is made, but chairs often ignore that.

Someone could make a motion to amend that supplants all or most of the main motion. But an amendment cannot be so different than the substance of the main motion that it has little or no relationship to it. The chair can rule on whether the amendment is germain to the main motion or on any other action which may run counter to the rules of order. A member of the body may appeal the decision of the chair. That may be debated and it takes a vote of 2/3 of the members to overturn a decision of the chair.

Debate may be limited. Sometimes the procedure is in standing rules of order (these may be adopted at the beginning of the session, or by other means and can be voted down or amended, maybe). If there are no other rules, debate is normally unlimited and can only be limited by a 2/3 vote. This too could be changed, but one would have to see how in standing rules or elsewhere.

If this confuses you, you are hardly alone. I suggest that some people read and re-read Robert's Rules, all pertinent WBCCI documents and study appropriate law so they can advise the members what to do. You will have to know as much or more than the Parliamentarian. This will require planning so that you can figure out what amendments to accept and what to attempt to change. A small, determined group which does its homework can change it all.

By bringing this up, the leadership is opening things up to major changes through an amendment process, perhaps without realizing it.

Good luck.

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Old 03-03-2011, 12:43 PM   #342
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There have been a lot of questions about how to adopt parts of a constitution/bylaws and how to amend the main motion. The WBCCI constitution/bylaws may have a different system, but, Robert's Rules of Order says:

Someone makes a motion and someone seconds it to put the motion on the floor. I believe this new document will be presented in parts. The chair opens the floor to debate. Anyone can make a motion to amend the motion (called the main motion). That motion to amend needs a second. Then the motion to amend is debated. Sometimes you get a "friendly amendment" to make a small change in a motion. Technically that must be done before a second is made, but chairs often ignore that.

Someone could make a motion to amend that supplants all or most of the main motion. But an amendment cannot be so different than the substance of the main motion that it has little or no relationship to it. The chair can rule on whether the amendment is germain to the main motion or on any other action which may run counter to the rules of order. A member of the body may appeal the decision of the chair. That may be debated and it takes a vote of 2/3 of the members to overturn a decision of the chair.

Debate may be limited. Sometimes the procedure is in standing rules of order (these may be adopted at the beginning of the session, or by other means and can be voted down or amended, maybe). If there are no other rules, debate is normally unlimited and can only be limited by a 2/3 vote. This too could be changed, but one would have to see how in standing rules or elsewhere.

If this confuses you, you are hardly alone. I suggest that some people read and re-read Robert's Rules, all pertinent WBCCI documents and study appropriate law so they can advise the members what to do. You will have to know as much or more than the Parliamentarian. This will require planning so that you can figure out what amendments to accept and what to attempt to change. A small, determined group which does its homework can change it all.

By bringing this up, the leadership is opening things up to major changes through an amendment process, perhaps without realizing it.

Good luck.

Gene
WOW. That's a lot of information. May I take a small nibble at just a couple of parts of what you have said? The way Forrest's motion is set to go and be voted upon unit by unit, that will bypass all the possible happenings, drama and frustrations and confusion of the above, is that correct? But that will be done away with as the New Constitution reads now, is that right Bob?

Another thing that pops out at me is that since there will be no delegates, will a 2/3rds vote be from International rally attendees or from a vote to be participated in by the entire membership by e-mail or mail ballots? The vote will definitely be a different procedure than what we have now. Another of my pet peeves is currently rally attendance is mandatory for voting. Sure you don't have to stay on site but you must be present. The rallies seem to be dwindling down to a niche segment of the membership rather than encompassing and representing the majority of general membership.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:51 PM   #343
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There have been a lot of questions about how to adopt parts of a constitution/bylaws and how to amend the main motion. The WBCCI constitution/bylaws may have a different system, but, Robert's Rules of Order .....................
The clubs Bylaws supersede RONR, if an issue in not within the Bylaws RONR will usually be followed.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:52 PM   #344
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WOW. will a 2/3rds vote be from International rally attendees or from a vote to be participated in by the entire membership by e-mail or mail ballots?
entire membership that's 1M1V
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:56 PM   #345
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Just do we are all clear, this is the CURRENT constitution wording.


C. Regular Members, who were in good standing when they sold their recreational vehicle manufactured by Airstream, Inc., may, upon request, retain their membership as Regular Members, provided such members do not own another brand of recreational vehicle, except such Regular Members may own another brand of recreational vehicle that is parked in a permanent or semi-permanent location to be used by the members as a vacation facility or as a home. (6/29/96)

Bob, I think you said this section is being deleted. What wording is proposed to allow for a similar circumstance?
It was deleted, replaced with Sec. 4 with cleaned up language



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Old 03-03-2011, 12:59 PM   #346
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entire membership that's 1M1V
So there will be no more in person votes at the International for delegates or membership correct?

Will you enumerate the steps for a member to make and pass a motion?

It's great to have a vote but its even better to have the right things offered up to be voted upon. I want to know how we make the choices and not just how to give a yea or nay to someone else's agenda.

One needs a replacement for what is being removed. We know what we will not have, now we need to know what will we have in its place. We need a lot more information.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:00 PM   #347
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Talking

Maybe I need top stop comment at this time, I'll wind up detailing the whole thing......not

I'm starting to feel like a punching bag getting sooo many lefts I'll beg for a right!

I still work if not my own boss I would have been fired by now for hanging out here, and am not retired
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:03 PM   #348
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Carol, obviously there are several options on how to approve amendments to the WBCCI constitution. Forrest's motion seemed to go through one of the options. There was a lot of back and forth concerning a ruling by someone that procedure was incorrect and then that seemed to be overruled and things may be going forward.

It appears the new constitution is using a different option and is being presented to a "delegates" meeting in the summer. The good thing about a "plenary" meeting such as a delegates meeting is that amendments will probably be allowed and the power of the leadership is much reduced.

Wording of amendments (both those proposed to amend the existing constitution and the amendments to those amendments—you could have amendments to amendments to amendments in some cases) is crucial. Some are terms of art that have special legal meanings. Other have subtle differences in meaning; grammar matters. These are substantive questions. But what I was writing about a couple of posts ago was procedure and that matters too. So does experience—you can read up on all this stuff, but it helps if you've done it before. You have to be fast at time and willing to debate assertively.

Well, what if Forrest's motion is approved and the new constitution is approved? Timing is important—which comes first? Maybe the delegates will approve an amendment that incorporates his amendment, or one that repeals it. There may be a WBCCI rule that determines this. Sometimes voters approve conflicting laws at the same time—that is always interesting. I believe in Colorado the rule is the one with the greater vote of approval controls, but maybe part of one and part of another gets adopted—this keeps the state supreme court busy. Thinking about things like that is fun for a lawyer.

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Old 03-03-2011, 01:09 PM   #349
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Perhaps a concrete example will aid us in examining the procedure from idea to successful passage and the steps involved.
1. unit, area, IBT or IP sends a proposed amendment to HQ.
2. HQ sends it to C&BL within 48 hours.
3. they have 21 days to complete to HQ.
4. in 48 hours the oringnator must receive it back
5. Placed on the agenda
6. Published in BB and web site
7. meeting
8 ballots sent
9. ballots received published result in 5 days
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:27 PM   #350
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That's the ticket! Thanks.

My only question in that is of scheduling. Will the agenda be addressed twice a year coinciding with the International and Mid-Winter dates or routinely throughout the year? If business can be addressed routinely throughout the year than the only delay will be the lead in time to the BB publication as I see it. I would like to see that 21 days for a recommendation from the C&BL be reduced.
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