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Old 03-02-2011, 07:13 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Boondocker View Post
Show me one single solitary official WBCCI document seeking input. Just one.
Rod there are two features you may want to try one is the search feature.

Now stop harassing points please

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Originally Posted by dwightdi View Post
From: Norman Beu <beu146@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:44:19 -0500
Subject: Membership
Friends

The selection of members for the Bylaws Revision Committee, approved by the Executive Committee on July 5, 2010, is now complete. I am pleased to announce the following appointments:

Dona Garner, Chairman, WBCCI Parliamentarian
Kerry Mattila, President, Ontario Canada Unit
Joe Perryman, 1st Vice President, Region 10
Bob Novak, Member, Metro New York Unit
Tom Smithson, First Vice President, Northern California Unit

I have encouraged Dona to consult with the 2020 Committee, the Vintage Airstream Club, and others as appropriate. I want to thank Dona, Kerry, Joe, Bob and Tom for stepping forward to the challenge of this significant task. My personal interest is to make the Blue Book more user friendly, to reduce the bulk, to review Standing Committee Job Descriptions, and to identify impediments to "fun, fellowship and adventure" - all the while retaining the essential character and the traditions of the WBCCI, including the Code of Ethics. Should you have an input for study by the Committee, please communicate directly with Dona.

Safe Travels

Norm Beu
President, WBCCI

The other feature is the ignore option.



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Old 03-02-2011, 07:44 PM   #296
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Interesting, how was that distributed? I don't recall seeing it. If you can show it went to everyone, then I halfway withdraw my show me a single document comment. But if it did not, then I wont. Beyond which, that announcement does not contemplate a complete rewrite, it clearly implies a tweaking.

My comments are not harassment, they are the voice of someone who is deeply frustrated and will not be cajoled into saying the Emperors new clothes look great.

Bob, it is not your place to decide who gets to comment or what topics are appropriate grist for the mill of discourse. That type of conduct is the very essence of the arrogance that so many have found so distressing.

In the mean time, I suggest you enjoy your moment in the limelight. On the information available (i.e. observable behavior as opposed to unsupported suppositions) it seems increasingly likely that the whole rewrite is spurious. Consider that a constitutional rewrite is an event of major importance; yet from the beginning the process has been under the radar. Now that the proposed changes have been vetted, it appears that the leadership has little interest in spending the appropriate resources to ensure that the membership is informed, educated and on board. This is not what one would expect from a legitimate effort to institute change.

More likely, this has been a sop to diffuse the lawsuit, and the leadership is not committed to change. When the half hearted efforts fails, as is inevitable, the leaders will walk away pretending they tried. And you, Bob, after a year of being their apologist will no longer be of use and will find yourself tossed on the scrap heap of no longer useful mere members. So enjoy your moment of pseudo spokesmanship because thats all you will get out of it.

By the way, you are right: I am a naysayer. When stupid things are going on, I say NAY. When the will of the membership is ignored, I say NAY. A reasonable man has the duty in this world to stand up on his hind legs and say no when these things happen; going along with whatever is fed to you is not good character. So, yes, I am a naysayer in this case; and proud of it.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:01 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Great post if the facts were the case herein, but their not.

Gene Have you reviewed Roberts Rules?

Generally you have Constitution, Bylaws and a Policy manual.

To use the term bylaws to also include the Constitution is more common than stating each, either way is correct.

The current Bylaws have policies interspersed between the each Article, that will be separated in the finalized re-write of the bylaws after the New Constitution is adopted.

It will be much easier to read & understand, many clubs are structured like that.

.
Yes, I have read Robert's Rules, more than once. The original was published in 1876 by Gen. Henry Robert and were written to standardize parliamentary procedure. The basic design is for plenary assemblies, but adapt fairly well to other meetings.

Section 67 of Robert's Rules of Order has a discussion of constitutions, bylaws, charters and such. Since the original text was written 135 years ago, some of it is out of date—even in the updated versions. Robert presided over two major revisions in 1893 and 1915 and others have further revised it subsequently. In the 19th century, many states chartered corporations by an act of the legislature and the primary organic document was called a "charter". Unincorporated associations used all sorts of terms including "constitution", "charter", "bylaws". It became unwieldy to charter each corporation individually and states adopted corporation codes or laws. The corporate organizers filled out a form called Articles of Incorporation, sent it to the Secretary of State, staff reviewed the form to see if it complied with the statutes, and approved or not. The term "corporate charter" is also accurate, but not often used now.

Robert's Rules do not have the force of law, but many organizations adopt them in their bylaws when they do not conflict with the Articles, bylaws, or laws of the state or nation.

They are rules of order, not rules of governance, though there is some overlap. To understand how corporations work you have to understand statutes and case law, then look over the usual (and unusual) ways they are organized. If you want to run a meeting, study Robert's Rules. If you want to understand power relationships, you have to study a lot more.

It is true that many names are used for organic documents. To understand where the power is, you have to look behind the names and look at the purposes of each document and how they distribute power.

If you think, Bob, Robert's Rules are the answer, you have a lot to learn, but perhaps, you prefer to quibble and attract attention to yourself. It's your choice.

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Old 03-02-2011, 08:10 PM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Great post if the facts were the case herein, but their not.

Gene Have you reviewed Roberts Rules?

Generally you have Constitution, Bylaws and a Policy manual.

To use the term bylaws to also include the Constitution is more common than stating each, either way is correct.

The current Bylaws have policies interspersed between the each Article, that will be separated in the finalized re-write of the bylaws after the New Constitution is adopted.

It will be much easier to read & understand, many clubs are structured like that.



.

You got to be kidding, right? You are trying to explain rule structures to an attorney? REALLY? For your next trick how about explaining wallowing to a pig?
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:19 PM   #299
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I'm still confused. We have an opportunity to look at a proposed revision. To find ways to improve it and then to find the votes to pass it. If we don't like it, it will be relatively easy to gather 1/3 of the votes to stop it. If we like it, we can accomplish more in this short period than in the last 5 years.

The key? Get a sufficient number of Delegates who are instructed to vote as they believe their membership would wish and then engage in constructive debate.

Why complain? Modify and approve.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:44 PM   #300
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Matt, in principal, and in fair game, you would be correct in your assessment. On the other hand, on the basis of past behavior from the chair, I think there is a high probability that their will be creative use of Roberts to thwart genuine efforts from the floor. As a recent case in point, I direct you to the shenanigans related to the proposal from the Denver unit. Nobody would be happier to be proven wrong on this than me, but I do not foresee that happening.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:16 PM   #301
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The key? Get a sufficient number of Delegates who are instructed to vote as they believe their membership would wish and then engage in constructive debate.
Typically there have been a number of units not represented at the International Rally and I wonder if this year there may be still fewer in attendance than previous years. Regardless of how the unit members vote and propose changes unless someone is going to sit out a day or two or more of these meetings at a high expense to attend the rally and also to travel to the rally site, many members will not be represented at all. Or just perhaps, attendance will receive a much needed boost from its current number of registered attendees entirely because of the new constitution, but I do doubt that happening.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:19 PM   #302
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If the Popular will is ignored or ruled out of order, vote no. It only takes 1/3 plus 1 to kill. Don't give up before the meeting.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:28 PM   #303
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Units should make provision for an alternate if necessary. Can someone refresh my memory as to the requirements that are mandated for an alternate to qualify to bring the unit's vote forward? I remember a simple designated proxy will not be accepted. Planning will be necessary and a last minute trip cancellation could stop a unit from representation unfortunately.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:36 PM   #304
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I beleive the point here is that the "New Constitution" itself should have never gotten this far without the (solicited) will of the membership. I am with Rodney on this one, I have never seen any official WBCCI document that mentions anything about a "New Constitution" being thought about, constructed, written or anything. And by official I mean on WBCCI letter head, not just a typed signature from somebody claiming to be the IP. The affore posted email mentions only the invitation to suggest (in writing, to the appropriate people/person) a revsion to the current ruling documents.

Futhermore, I am shocked at the statement made of having to FIRST pass a new constitution SO THAT the bylaws can then be written and presumably adopted without membership approval.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:40 PM   #305
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Units should make provision for an alternate if necessary. Can someone refresh my memory as to the requirements that are mandated for an alternate to qualify to bring the unit's vote forward? I remember a simple designated proxy will not be accepted. Planning will be necessary and a last minute trip cancellation could stop a unit from representation unfortunately.
An alternate is selected by the unit. There are 2 forms which the Unit President needs to fill out. One is the delegate form and the other is the alternate delegate form. The signature of the Unit President is all that is required. The delegate and alternate should be members of that unit. A recent change allows a delegate to be an associate member of the unit if they are members of a unit in the same region and are not delegate for the other unit.

Hope that makes sense...
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:09 PM   #306
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Yes it does make sense. Thank you Richard. You explained it very clearly.

It's that same region restriction that I find problematic. A distant region may have more difficulty in finding a delegate to attend than a unit in closer proximity to the rally site. It takes more time to travel and it's more expensive for that delegate to represent their unit. A verification call, fax or e-mail from the unit president to transfer validation to another member who is in attendance would allow a higher success rate of maximum coverage though out the club. We shall see what is proposed in the new constitution without delegates in the future...

Bob, can you tell us how that would play out without a meeting at the International as is the current and past practice of deliberation and voting? How do the unorganized members organize for discussion? Is it through the area representatives? Must the area president give approval and recommendation to move an item forward as new business? Will all region officers be eliminated and new area officers selected, and how; or if the current region officers will be reduced in number, how will that be accomplished?

I would have liked to have seen a change for delegates to preside over their own meeting rather than the Executive Committee officiating instead of the total elimination of the status and provision to address issues collectively. I think the ability to work together electronically, without geographic, or the current meeting date restrictions, would be a much more productive and cost effective approach to conducting business. I believe you said future amendments will take less time in the future. Can you give an example of how?
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:11 PM   #307
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Carol,

If there are any proposed amendments to the CoC or Constitution they will be published before the Int rally, there would be a meeting to debate any amendment(s), this meeting would be open to all members.

The IP would preside over the meeting, after which the originator may make any changes. A ballot would be sent out to be completed and returned to HQ by mail or electronic means by a date certain, the votes would be tallied within 5 days and the results published.

Time frame <60 days to the meeting of members.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:53 AM   #308
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Futhermore, I am shocked at the statement made of having to FIRST pass a new constitution SO THAT the bylaws can then be written and presumably adopted without membership approval.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. The revised bylaws were written first. The committee then realized their revision conflicted with the current constitution, and so set itself to rewritting the constitution. This is why President Beu's letter only refers to streamlining the bylaws. No letter was ever sent out asking for input on a new constitution.

The cart is before the horse.
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