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Old 03-02-2011, 09:10 AM   #281
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All of your questions have been addressed previously in this threat.

If you review the thread you will note that the reason for 44 pages of print is that the original, the revision, and the reasoning will be presented in a 3 column format thus the need for 44 pages.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:16 AM   #282
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Who’s in charge?
Why can’t the club put forth a candid and trusted spokesperson?
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:38 AM   #283
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The IP is in charge.

Who would you suggest?

The others on the committee read this, for the most part they don't want to put up with the tone of some of the people here.

Perhaps they don't understand forums as you and I do and the culture of its users.

If you don't think I'm qualified to answer questions about a document that I spent hundreds of hours along with 4 others, fine don't ask here, ask someone else then please.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:45 AM   #284
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OK, right now I could care less if I receive the text written on the backside of a used McDonald's napkin.

I'm gonna just wait until the document is issued. I will then share it with my unit. No big deal. Until then, I'm considering these days "the calm before the storm".

In truth, I'm really falling under the belief that the constitution means nothing. All the power and rules will fall in the bylaws.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:54 AM   #285
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In truth, I'm really falling under the belief that the constitution means nothing. All the power and rules will fall in the bylaws.
Dan,

The rules perhaps not the power per se.

Look at this way the Constitution is the locomotive, the Bylaws are the freight cars.

The Constitution is the power IMO
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:14 PM   #286
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Oh Well

Bob,

Based on your responses to my answers, I can see you have now officially become one of the inner circle or as some might say, part of the problem and not the solution with the WBCCI, which is fine at least we know where you stand. Some of us worried more about people just getting a chance for members to cast a vote, I didn’t and don’t care if the vote was email, mailed, phoned, sent carrier pigeon or slow boat to China. Oh, and to make sure it was “approved by the C&BL Chair”; you’re really starting to sound like one of the IBT/EC7 now (again that's fine, we know where you stand). Again, what’s one of the biggest problems with the WBCCI “all the rules”? People don’t join a club to worry if they are following rules in everything they do, badge color, number/types of flags flown, etc… You are welcome to do your own research on the WDCU By-Laws. If you don’t like what you find, oh well.

I personally don’t have a problem with the delegate system. It has worked for over 50 years, if your unit does not show up, your vote does not count, not real hard to understand. You could always make a simple change, allow units to Send a proxy, send an email, this is not real hard. Oh yeh, that idea was shot down by the IBT/EC7 too.

All you would have to do is create a “MAL Unit” which is out of HQ. They could send their vote to HQ, it would be up to that group to get a delegate (if they wish) and make sure they go vote or see above. They would be able to hold office just like any member in a unit.

It appears whenever an “amendment” to change something is brought up from a Unit, the IBT/EC7 shoots it down for some reason, ask Forrest! So why waste your time and effort. If the IBT/EC7 were real leaders they could have brought that forward no problem a long time ago. They have been able to bring forth the MOHO, Name Change, the re-writing of the whole Constitution, etc... no problem for them to do that. But bringing forth the right for a MAL to vote, no way! Let's to a total re-write for that.

Allowing a MAL to vote would have been cake-walk and a slam-dunk, asking Units to use proportional voting would be as easy as a letter out to the Units.

You’re in business Bob, what’s the biggest pain in your butt? That’s right, following all the rules put down by the Fed’s, State and Local governments. What makes you think this is any different here?

Some people just enjoy creating complex solutions for simple problems.
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:34 PM   #287
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I agree with LI Pets!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Look at this way the Constitution is the locomotive, the Bylaws are the freight cars.
And its one hell of a train wreck.
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:02 PM   #288
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spoken like a true naysayer
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:12 PM   #289
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By the way, the gist was in jest.

You really can't throw out softballs like that and expect them not to get hit. You really can't.
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:48 PM   #290
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Maybe this minitreatise on corporate structure will help in understanding.

The stuff about differences between "constitution" and "bylaws" confuses the issue. The WBCCI does not use standard corporate law terms; I will.

Corporations have rules of how to run the organization either in Articles of Incorporation or bylaws. The Articles are usually very general. The bylaws generally include a mission statement, what membership means (shareholders in a for profit corp.), powers of officers and directors, executive committee powers, how to conduct directors' meetings, annual meeting, amendments, financial matters, conflict of interest rules, where the assets go if the corporation is dissolved, committee powers and types, employees, nondiscrimination statements, relationships between other groups (regions and units in the WBCCI).

I may have left out some things, but it's about how to govern the organization. Different corporations may have other rules specific to them—for the WBCCI this could be about rallies and caravans. Sometimes there are two levels—bylaws for standard stuff as I outlined, and "rules", "regulations", "policies" or the like. In this case the bylaws are more likely to be about the usual power relationships and how to govern. The "lower" level is more likely to be about things specific to the organization—say, how many flags to have, beret colors, rallies, but you may find conflict of interest or an employee handbook there, for example.

The rules may be mandatory or suggestions or guidelines. The bylaws are more likely to be mandatory. Bylaws are usually harder to amend than rules or policies. Sometimes only the members can amend the bylaws and maybe only by a super majority. Rules often can be amended by a board. Amendments to bylaws need to be noticed (lawyers have turned this into a verb) to anyone who votes on it. If a significant number of potential votes do not get notice, I think there could be a challenge to the vote. Power point is not enough (power point is designed to put people to sleep). The actual document needs to be distributed even if it costs money—democracy has expenses.

The WBCCI does it differently, but mixing up names is not unusual, especially in non profits.
Constitution should mean a basic document from which power flows. That is the purpose of Articles of Incorporation. "Constitution" usually is for governments. The WBCCI uses the term "constitution" for what is usually "bylaws". The WBCCI uses the term "bylaws" for what would be policies, rules, etc. Generally I am using the term "bylaws" as it is used in corporation law, not the way the WBCCI uses it.

There should be a clear difference between bylaws and policies, rules, etc. The latter should not be about how the corporation is governed (i. e., power). Changing bylaws should have little effect on other policies and rules, but it can. If the latter conflict with new bylaws, the bylaws control. If there are a lot of conflicts, the rules and policies should be amended at the same time.

I see a lot of talk about the WBCCI's bylaws as if they had to do with governance. This seems like bad form to me. If so, they should have been looked at with the "constitution". Most, if not all, power relationships should be defined in the Articles and bylaws, not elsewhere.

Carry on and don't forget the personal insults. This thread is often the virtual room where you lock everyone in and see what happens.

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Old 03-02-2011, 06:29 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
This thread is often the virtual room where you lock everyone in and see what happens.

Gene
Great post Gene. I do disagree with the above comment though. The fact is, the majority of people are not allowed in the room let alone a seat at the table. Despite Bobs positioning himself as some sort of WBCCI spokesperson, as far as I know, the club has never appointed him to any such role. The larger membership had no voice in the decision to rework the documents, nor has the reasoning for doing so been made public through anything approaching official channels. Setting aside the spurious thread here, no input was sought. There was absolutely NO venue for official comment: none. Now that the document is being released, it is being done so in the least effective manner possible.

No, Gene, this thread is the virtual thread where you lock everyone outside and see what happens.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:44 PM   #292
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Great post if the facts were the case herein, but their not.

Gene Have you reviewed Roberts Rules?

Generally you have Constitution, Bylaws and a Policy manual.

To use the term bylaws to also include the Constitution is more common than stating each, either way is correct.

The current Bylaws have policies interspersed between the each Article, that will be separated in the finalized re-write of the bylaws after the New Constitution is adopted.

It will be much easier to read & understand, many clubs are structured like that.



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Old 03-02-2011, 06:54 PM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondocker View Post
There was absolutely NO venue for official comment: none.
That is not true, that issue was covered too many times to repeat again

Quote:
Now that the document is being released, it is being done so in the least effective manner possible.
Its release is up to the IP, the manner I described is not yet in stone, so wait a bit to find out...........
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:00 PM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
That is not true, that issue was covered too many times to repeat again
.........

Show me one single solitary official WBCCI document seeking input. Just one.
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