View Poll Results: Do you support the WBCCI's current plans to rebadge an SOB Class "A" motor home as an
Yes, I do support this. 26 10.57%
No, I do not support this. 220 89.43%
Voters: 246. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-26-2007, 02:26 PM   #113
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Bryan-

I wish you luck and good will in your life down the road. I hope you met other like minded people and enjoy. I hope that a few days from now you will go back and reread the words you have posted and realize in your own wisdom that in your own way you have insulted forum members, put words into their mouths and have as many good politicains configured statements to fit your needs. This thread has lost all meaning of it's originator:

Simple poll for all WBCCI members AND prospective members.

You have heard the news that the WBCCI leadership is discussing the possibility of re-badging a THOR Class "A" motorhome as an Airstream. You can find details about this issue on these forums and at WBCCI's own web site (as well as SaveWally.org). Do you support the WBCCI's current plans to rebadge an SOB Class "A" motor home as an Airstream product.

A simple Yes or No will do. This is not a scientific poll, just an informal one.


I myself will admit I have in a fashion highjacked this thread. Now, as a gentleman I will step aside; I have had my word without assulting or injuring anyone and I will call it a day.
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Old 01-26-2007, 02:35 PM   #114
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I hope you met other like minded people and enjoy.
I don't. Its people with other views and opinions that add spice and learning.

But then, I do prefer honesty rather than innuendo and misperception.

The poll you suggest will happen, in due course and in its time. What you suggest is an innapropriate venue at an innapropriate time and without the kind of thoughtful consideration of views and opinions that lead to effective and productive outcomes.

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I have had my word without assulting or injuring anyone
now this could be an interesting one to discuss!
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:08 PM   #115
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Bryan,

I read your posts and find it is nearly impossible to get a "productive response" from you. We do get a lot of lectures. I know by past history that any serious challenge to anything you post is labeled as an ad hominiminimum (personal attack for those who don't speak Latin). It is for these reasons i have not replied directly to any of your posts. however, I feel the need to say a few things.

Watching this thread as it has developed has shown me 2 things. The members and prospective members of the WBCCI as represented here have strong feelings about the issues facing them and they also have a voice. And secondly, you are repeatedly suggesting, in a manner of speaking, that they keep quiet. Perhaps not directly, but certainly the suggestion is there.

Based on your previous post I feel compelled to speak out. I take offense to your "jihad" comment, especially coming from somebody whom I believe probably did not even serve his country as I have done. Wikipedia (Jihad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) offers several definitions of Jihad, none of which remotely describe the actions or positions of any of the people opposed to the actions of the IBT. taking a stand is not a Jihad. However, your comment does represent an excellent example of a passive-aggressive ad hominem. I will however point out to the good readers of this thread that simple things like women's suffrage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage) was the product of such vocal expressions. These women were also in more forceful ways told to be quiet, but that didn't work and, as we know, the world it is a better pace for it. IBT will be a better place for all of the members and prospective members taking the courage to speak out on the issues currently facing them.

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AFAIK The IBT has not told anyone to stand down and/or to get out from anything.
. President Jim Franklin DID in fact tell more than one person to "stand down" at the delegates meeting in Salem. It is recorded and published at SaveWally.org. I suspect that you didn't actually attend the entire delegates meeting in Salem and you have not listened to the recordings which we published so you would not know this fact. He also clearly did invite members who were not happy to get a Winnebago and join another club. This at the IBT meeting in Perry, GA this month. That also is recorded and published. But I am assuming that you didn't hear that because you did not listen to the recordings and probably did not attend that meeting.

This brings me to another point...
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That should be the concern: understanding the rules of procedure, getting the context right (which is why the recording is so misleading), and taking responsibilities to be accountable for working the system properly and holding it accountable.
and
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Bad faith, when it is falsly based is also never a good idea.
. Does this apply to the actions of the IBT as well? Hmmm. The recordings are not misleading, in fact they give every member and prospective member listening the best opportunity to hear the meetings as they happened. It is probably the next best thing to being there. And dozens of people have thanked us at SaveWally for doing it. Also, as you can read on these forums, many are saying that they have been long time members of the WBCCI and have never seen actions like these (the MOHO issue for example) happen before. Where the context goes wrong is when, for example, the IBT publishes a story about the name change in the Blue Beret talking about the name change with only one side of the argument. Without ALL the facts, one can not make an informed decision about any topic. But in the area of accountability, this certainly seems to be a one way street. The IBT and the leadership are coming up with ideas, forming committees and pushing through motions. But they are not taking the responsibility to research if these ideas are actually in the best interest of the WBCCI. How do you form a committee and in the space of about a month take a survey and form a conclusion to drastically alter the clubs constitution ( and 50+ year history) and find that to be a responsible course of action? They are making blind decisions without fully educating themselves. Who holds them responsible? Us - not really likely when the board of officers is de facto laid out for the next dozen years or so. It is not so easy to use "proper procedures" and "codes of conduct" to vote a different kind of leadership in in a timely enough fashion to prevent the club from being irreparably damaged by a temporary leadership group who may or may not be qualified to be making these decisions. And as the current membership is showing, the damage is being done. BYW, there are groups out there with leadership that is actually able to grow membership - like HOG. It can be done.

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How is this measured? If I use posts on these forums, I only get a bare handful. If I use what I hear at events and rallies I get even fewer. It I use what I saw at the last delegates meeting in Salem I see only one or two (there were far more people at the 'activists' reception than in the meeting gallery, for instance).
Unless I am mistaken, you are speaking of the Rock, Paper, Scissors contest we had prior to the delegates meeting? That was far from an "activists meeting" but quite a passive-aggressive suggestion on your part. Anyway, I must have missed seeing you there at that 'activists' reception, if it is the one you were talking about. Sorry, I was too busy meeting new friends and having a good time. Also, unless I am mistaken I never saw you at the delegates meeting. Were you there? Just wondering... There were plenty of people there who were concerned about the name change. There will be far more this year I guarantee with the MOHO issue. But not everybody can attend the delegates meeting. They will be speaking with loud voices at the unit and regional levels and, as you are well aware, are already doing so.

Currently, the WBCCI, through the leadership of the IBT makes a movement (in this case to rebadge SOB's and allow these into the club), then sells this movement to the membership with only the viewpoint of the IBT as the reasoning for the action. Where is the voice of those who oppose such folly? Silenced as you suggest? Trying to use the "code of conduct" to press a point? No, we are looking at the proposal and saying "No Way". And it isn't just one or two voices as you suggest, it is over a hundred voices as evidenced by this unscientific poll. 85% of the people who read this thread and who decided to vote expressed an opinion. They also feel it is a bad idea. Not all will come right out and write something, perhaps for fear of being lectured as to how they are misguided or worse, misled.

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I do not see people letting membership lapse because they don't like the voting method or the method by which the club conducts its business or because of the variety of RV's involved.
Yes... but this time you may be wrong. membership is in freefall. A member a day or so is leaving.

You label speaking out on this subject with passion and verve as inappropriate behavior. Rosa Parks was convicted of "inappropriate behavior". I remembers something in history class about a tea party, sorry I wasn't invited, sounded like fun and perhaps a worthy cause. How about this...
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Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it....This is the condition of children and barbarians, in whom instinct has learned nothing from experience.~George Santayana (1863-1952), Spanish-born American philosopher and writer primarily known for his theories of aesthetics, morality, and the spiritual life. Life Of Reason (1905), Vol. 1, Chap. 12, P.284
The membership is already offering opinion - the membership is still declining. I know, I know...It just the national trend, not just WBCCI - (see HOG comment above).

The posts you are making on this topic are in fact more like the kind of lectures that a master would be telling his students. Perhaps this is a product of that leadership seminar you took in Salem. To me, the "opinions" you express give me the impression of one who is now on the fast track to regional and eventually international leadership position. But your opinions are just one persons viewpoint. You have that right. Rather than take any challenge to your beliefs, or the PTB beliefs or he IBT beliefs as an ad hominiminuminum, take them as an ad lucem. The illumination...

I would ask you how you stand on the issue of the proposed rebadging of SOB's (after-all, that is what this topic is actually about) but I know from history that if I were to ask you, you would probably not actually answer the question, but rather offer up another lecture. So I won't ask....
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:12 PM   #116
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:18 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Leipper
What I am seeing is people taking their disagreements personal. This is from the attacks on the IBT or the PTB (powers that be) or of the OBN (old boys network) the other 'us' vs 'them' rants or even the ad hominem named allegations. This goes beyond matters of identity in my mind. Unless we can behave by the code of conduct described in the WBCCI code of ethics and by what are generally considered appropriate guidelines for conducting business and working with each other, the rest of the issues are moot questions.
.
I think this stems when a person feels powerless and that the feeling is there is no input. I've been in touch with the current past president from the unit I used to belong to and this proposition which the IBT brought up and approved caught him by complete surprise. This change if brought forth on a discussion level to the local units could have given the proper feed back so that the item brought forth at IBT this winter would have had vast input. That way membership would have felt some ownership in the proposition.

Every thing I see so far tells me that the universe used to hammer out this proposal was of questionable representation and the ultimate result is something that many members feel that they are on the outside looking in. This is a gigantic issue and you can't deny that many people are going to have their backs up. When things are dealt like this, hostility ensues and the gloves come off. I myself don't like to see things get personal but on the other hand I perfectly understand the unhappiness vented on this level.

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Old 01-26-2007, 04:41 PM   #118
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Hi Bryan,

Inappropriate behavior should never have to be tolerated. I think the best way we can educate others is to be open to learn ourselves, to be willing to examine our own ideas, and to evaluate and better understand the assumptions, ideas and values that lie behind our own conclusions.

From my experience, suggestions to the IBT have fallen upon deaf ears. I realize they have a tough job and are probably good decent folk. What I do not see from my leaders is vision. I don't see goals and, most importantly, I don't see any accountabilty. What I do hear on the tapes Bryan are people who are congratulating themselves as they preside over a club that is losing members in a growing market. Airstream, I believe, is making about 2000 units a year. Are you saying they are staying away from the club because they are hearing some not-so-delicate, sometimes inarticulate opinions on this forum? "We" are a just "bare handful" Bryan. How could we possibly have such an effect?

Both our leaders and our members have a duty to ask questions and really listen to the answers to discover what the problems are. Then, and only then, can you go about fixing them. If you can't clearly understand or won't accept what the problems are then you are not going to be successful in solving them. Clearly there is a lot of "noise" and "interference" that occurs on a forum such as this. It can get messy at times. It is the responsibilty of the members and leaders to slog through this muck to better understand themselves, the issues and their conclusions.

WBCCI has been suffering for quite a while. Part of this is due to the dilution of the Airstream brand. Part of it is due to demographics. Part is due to the price differentials of our RVs. But more important is that the mission and purpose of the club is getting lost. I don't like the direction the IBT is taking us. Here, on this forum, this thread, this post, I can help my fellow forum friends, you included Bryan, to help them see what I see and maybe spark some messy, over-the-top dialogue; some enthusiasm; some ideas and creativity; some solutions.

Are you with me Bryan?

Don
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:47 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Jack
I think this stems when a person feels powerless and that the feeling is there is no input.
Yes indeed, the frustration can be very great and that can create a significant temptation towards letting loose.

Quote:
This is a gigantic issue and you can't deny that many people are going to have their backs up.
Me, too. But that does not excuse 'bad' behavior.

Look at a previous post, it addresses me, personally and then generalzes my posts as complaining about ad hominem - contrast that to where I had studiously avoided mentioning whether an 'activists' gathering was pro or con (I know of at least one of both at the Salem I'rally) in order to stay on issue rather than on people.

What makes for a civilized society is when the buttons get pushed and we still maintain control of our behavior and our feelings. Bad decisions are often the result when people can't think straight because their emotions are in control. That is why a good process allows time - time for people to think, time for people to calm down, time for people to talk to each other, time for all of us to learn from each other and about each other's views and values. That is how we can make friendships and form healthy assocoations.
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Old 01-26-2007, 05:08 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by don
suggestions to the IBT have fallen upon deaf ears
I am wondering if you have seen more motions from Units than I have. (this is another measure of the insterest of the membership).

Create your suggestion as a motion of your Unit (form in the BB) for the action you seek. Work it through the chain. Of course, that means you take the risk of getting voted down at each level - the work involved and avoiding the risk are often reasons why folks try to bypass the process in my experience. But it also gives you the opportunity to present your case and learn what others think about it. That can help in planning future action.

Ears are only deaf if there are more important things to listen to. Making your issues important to listen to is why you need to build credibility for them. This credibility comes from good ideas that are properly presented and have sufficient support to give them weight. That support is both in the soundness and appropriateness of the rationale for the idea and also in the gathering of its sponsors and advocates.

Why aren't there prototype Unit motions being passed around? Get the form all filled out with good solid language and an accompanying case statement so Units can get it to a vote and pass it along as theirs without too much effort. See what happens.
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Old 01-26-2007, 05:23 PM   #121
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Bryan
You're preaching to people who revel in discourse. If it wasn't this, it would be something else. No life of their own I would guess. I really marvel at the level of venom that is thrown around.

The poles that are taken on this forum are relatively worthless. They represent a small percentage of the WBCCI and are fanned on by the firebrands, until people seem to lose all sense of decency and logic.

From studying history, I think the French Revolutiion was more civil.

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!
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Old 01-26-2007, 05:38 PM   #122
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Very well said Gunner.

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Old 01-26-2007, 05:59 PM   #123
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ok folks there is a topic 4 this thread...

which is the inclusion of non airstream rv units in the club...

and the ibt click that wants this to happen...

ignore the lectures and preaching. it misdirects us from the bigger issues...

right now it's another brand of mohos...

but it could be 5th wheels next...

right now it is a specific thor brand...

but should 4winds fall on hard times,

it could be other moho brands next...

klevan has made a great point...

about the financial perks. this issue should not be ignored...

yes this $$ is to cover travel to wb functions...

but regardless it pays for travel and upkeep for...

airstream mohos currently and these ibt folks specifically.

the ibt is so disconnected from the general membership that they need a translator just to get it...

then they ignore it...

most of the ibt functions are a huge waste of club funds...

but it DOES give these folks something to do and feel important about...

virtually everything they travel for could be done with confernce calls or video conferences...

real businesses do things this way regularly,

because travel is costly and time consuming unless absolutely necessary....

i found it poetic that the FIRST thing these folks did at salem...

was approve themselves an increase in reimbursement...

i'm happy for the few units and intraclubs that prosper and enjoy camping...

but they do it inspite of the ibt/parent club...

do we really need our dues and int rally fees going to the ibt'rs who have another agenda?

unless one is on the ibt tenure track, most comments, ideas and suggestions are ignored...

yes the folks reading and posting here are a biased sampling of members and NON members and FORMER members...

but that IS ok...

this is the air forums community after all...

cheers
2air'

oh and good post gunner!
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Old 01-26-2007, 06:58 PM   #124
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Lots of well expressed thoughts here. I voted no in the poll and think my reasons have been covered sufficiently and much more brightly than I could have expressed myself so i will leave the rationale to be as described below.

Is it just me or do others see only two types of posts here basically? There are those against the motorhome motion, and those against those against the motorhome issue. I find the group advocating the change obviously absent, not unlike the name change.

We have those freely offering their stand and trying to make a case for it and then we have those who do not declare their stand but say we are feeling incorrectly, proceeding incorrectly, to hush, to proceed slower. We are not in order to address the issues in our chosen way of assembling and free speech. Unscrupulous they say! Balderdash, I say.

Proceed slower? That's just it. We are NOT proceeding, we are defending ourselves from the proceeding and talking about the vote that will be coming to us. Where are all the people who have brought the vote TO us? Where is their case?

We joined a club with a name and constitution in place, when we do not want that to change, we are the impetuous types. ???????????????
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Old 01-26-2007, 07:10 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by wheel interested
Is it just me or do others see only two types of posts here basically? There are those against the motorhome motion, and those against those against the motorhome issue. I find the group advocating the change obviously absent, not unlike the name change.

Where are all the people who have brought the vote TO us? Where is their case?
Well I guess it's back to the fact that this issue was not really discussed with the unit membership before it was brought forward at the IBT meeting. So for all intents the universe of supporters are pretty small.

Do these folks lurk here? Maybe. Do they occupy the WBCCI site? Maybe. But even if you consider this forum hostile to the leadership, why couldn't they have floated a trial balloon on their site to at least involve those members who are electronically active? Wouldn't have cost a penny. That's why the process used to bring this forward smells. These folks at the top end are really shooting themselves in the foot.

Jack
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Old 01-26-2007, 07:19 PM   #126
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There Jack you just mentioned what I logged back on to question! The IBT is in office to represent the membership, but the motion has been made from the IBT level for the benefit of the IBT level. Had the members urged their units to bring forth the motion, this discussion might not exist.

My question to the parliamentarians and wanna-bees is what is prescribed in the constitution and by-laws as appropriate business for the IBT to generate at that level?

What a lot of time and resources have been dedicated to taking away first the name and then taking away WBCCI's identity. Interesting to me was that the rationale for the motion was challenged as to identifying the Airstream RV Owners Association rather than the WBCCI and the rationale language was not ammended but was instead reaffirmed to be of the proper intent.
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