WBCCI MOHO Poll

[Airstream25]

Are you happy about how your leadership is spending your dues money?

WBCCI, who needs them?

[mistral blue]

Originally Posted by Airstream25

Are you happy about how your leadership is spending your dues money?

WBCCI, who needs them?

(1) NO!

(2) The question should read: IBT, who needs them? Thor

(3) Gimme back WBCCI

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by mistral blue

(3) Gimme back WBCCI

Bingo - I am sure the MOHO proposal would make Wally's sister roll in her grave.

[rickandsandi]

Why is Wally Crying?

[bryanl]

Because he needs to find a new club to join. His vision has been lost!

In these forums, maybe - there are a lot of examples from a few folks who want demographic based clubs and virtual clubs and politics and propaganda and intolerance and other such things.

But out in the wild, that's where the spirit of Wally Byam lives. Attending rallies, getting out in the RV, seeing new places, making new friends, being respectful of others (and for reality).

No, Wally's not crying. Its a handful of folks who seem bitter and angry because others won't toe their view of the world who seem to be in tears. The rest of us are out camping and seeing new things and making new friends.

Now the question is: why is there more than one thread with the same posts? Why are they all full of complaints and accusations and allegations and innuendo and bitter angry people? When the major players have no direct complaint what is it that creates such a motivation to spew this stuff all over these forums? Why doesn't the code of ethics of the WBCCI seem to be any guide? Why isn't this effort towards getting out in their Airstream RV and seeing the world and meeting new friends?

[cooperhawk]

hear, hear. A voice out of the wilderness.

[mistral blue]

Originally Posted by Leipper

In these forums, maybe - there are a lot of examples from a few folks who want demographic based clubs and virtual clubs and politics and propaganda and intolerance and other such things.

But out in the wild, that's where the spirit of Wally Byam lives. Attending rallies, getting out in the RV, seeing new places, making new friends, being respectful of others (and for reality).

No, Wally's not crying. Its a handful of folks who seem bitter and angry because others won't toe their view of the world who seem to be in tears. The rest of us are out camping and seeing new things and making new friends.

Now the question is: why is there more than one thread with the same posts? Why are they all full of complaints and accusations and allegations and innuendo and bitter angry people? When the major players have no direct complaint what is it that creates such a motivation to spew this stuff all over these forums? Why doesn't the code of ethics of the WBCCI seem to be any guide? Why isn't this effort towards getting out in their Airstream RV and seeing the world and meeting new friends?

Hey Bryan,

The folks to whom you seem to be referring are frustrated with their club's leaders. They just want to be heard and right now this forum gives them the opportunity to at least speak without interruption. The IBT, on the otherhand, tells them to stand down and/or get out! Is that fair or ethical? Is that leadership?

More than just a few folks want some changes in their club and leadership Bryan. They have legitimate concerns. They also have ideas and suggestions and, yes, sometimes they do come across a little too strong for my sweet, sensitive disposition. But this is a democracy Bryan. They have the right to communicate here the way they do. They have the right to be noisy, loud and passionate. And I don't blame them in the least! No one on the IBT seems to want to listen to them. Why?

Your 2nd paragraph is right on and I agree.

Regarding your 3rd paragraph: From my viewpoint you are referring to the IBT. Why won't they try to compromise on this proposed amendment Bryan? Or are you really in agreement that the proposed Constitutional amendment should be defeated? I have yet to hear how you feel about it officially. Are you for or against the proposal? Would you like to offer a compromise? Are you just waiting for someone to ask you to join Save Wally? We'd love to have you. Just let us know. You could even start another thread if you'd like.

Don

[rickandsandi]

Bryan-

As an officer of WBCCI you should be listneing to the membership because they are speaking loud and clear!

The emotional factor is apparent in the 'holy jihad' some have going on the topic of the day, every day it seems. IMHO, it is the overraught rhetoric we see in these threads that is doing more to drive members away than anything else.

As a veteran of this great contry, I take acception to the choice of words you have used in your above comment! What you are seeing here in the forums and reading are good honest, hard working people voicing thier opinions in an open forum in no way affiliated with WBCCI. If you feel so strongly that members of the WBCCI are misinformed, it would appear to me that the IBT should make it their mission that the members of the WBCCI are not left to their own devises to become informed. If misinformation is so rampant, where can members go to secure accurate information? The members of WBCCI need support from thier leadership and not insults. The club will survive but currently it has lost its direction and focus and spending extrodinary energies on issues which should not even be up for discussion. What should be addressed is what is the larger demographic of the organization, who is joining, who is not joining and why.

[nvestysly]

I recently listened to the IBT proceedings posted on savewally.org - thanks to those who made the recordings. This type of audio recording is exactly what is needed to ensure WBCCI members and others can understand what is going on with matters at hand. I sent an email to Communicator (Renee?) to inform her of the importance of the audio recordings.

After listening to the issues I still say WHEN? NEVER! Don't permit non-Airstream products into WBCCI. If necessary, some sort of grandfather clause - maybe. But don't open the WBCCI to other brands.

If I owned a Pontiac I would not expect the Chevrolet club to allow me to participate in Chevrolet club events. Even though both makes are produced by General Motors.

Lucius

[rickandsandi]

Originally Posted by nvestysly

If I owned a Pontiac I would not expect the Chevrolet club to allow me to participate in Chevrolet club events. Even though both makes are produced by General Motors.

Lucius

Here, here!

[rickandsandi]

WOW, looks just like an Aistream to me!



This is the monster you will be finding parked to you if IBT has it's way! Did you know that there is a Mandalay Travel Club? Right from their Q&A sheet:

Membership:
Who can join the Mandalay Travel Club?
You must own a Mandalay, Presidio or Valencia Class A diesel motorhome, manufactured by Mandalay Luxury Division to be eligible for membership.

Sound familiar folks? Doesn't WBCCI have a similiar statement? If there is already an organization limited to Mandalay owners only why do we need them in WBCCI?

[bryanl]

Originally Posted by Don

The folks to whom you seem to be referring are frustrated with their club's leaders. They just want to be heard and right now this forum gives them the opportunity to at least speak without interruption. The IBT, on the otherhand, tells them to stand down and/or get out! Is that fair or ethical? Is that leadership?

Venting, especially in public, is never a good idea.

Bad faith, when it is falsly based is also never a good idea.

AFAIK The IBT has not told anyone to stand down and/or to get out from anything. That would require a proper motion that is run through the proper process with appropriately noted outcomes. Such allegations tell me that personal vendettas are being used to 'interpret' individual statements that, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, often lack either accuracy or context. And then these personal statements are being elevated to formal policy.

And then there are rules of order. When someone acts out or tries to take business off point, that is a matter of effective conduct of business and the allegation would then be another matter. There are ways to do things and the abuse of those ways is destructive. That's why there are accepted guides for conducting business.

That should be the concern: understanding the rules of procedure, getting the context right (which is why the recording is so misleading), and taking responsibilities to be accountable for working the system properly and holding it accountable.

Originally Posted by Don

More than just a few folks want some changes in their club and leadership

How is this measured? If I use posts on these forums, I only get a bare handful. If I use what I hear at events and rallies I get even fewer. It I use what I saw at the last delegates meeting in Salem I see only one or two (there were far more people at the 'activists' reception than in the meeting gallery, for instance).

There is a process for making changes. The name change process was an example of this in action. Each and every election for officers is an example of this as well as an opportunity. Each and every Unit meeting is an example and an opportunity. Responsible members are using these mechansisms to create change. They realize that change comes by working through others and creating friendships. They realize that they may not get everything just their way on their schedule. They realize that they have responsibilities to understand what is going on and why by taking the initiative to go out and find what they need to know.

They have legitimate concerns

This may be. But their methods may delegitimatize their concerns. When the codes of conduct are thrown out the window; when there is a lack of responsibility in taking the initiative to understand the rules and policies; when existing mechanisms are thrown aside or dismissed ad hoc; when an innapropriate venue used; when there is no clear definition of the harm that prompts the change; -- when these are the methods used the legitimacy of the concern must be questioned.

Why won't they try to compromise on this proposed amendment

Because that is not within the scope of their responsibilities. That task belongs first to the membership and then to the delegates. These are the bookends for the IBT's tasks.

Originally Posted by rick

As an officer of WBCC

Sorry, the only such position I hold is currently is as treasurer in my local Unit. To assign me any representative position is as far off base as assigning powers to the IBT that they don't have. My involvement is more in line with that discussed at The Jewish Ethicist on When to do the “right thing.”

What I am seeing is people taking their disagreements personal. This is from the attacks on the IBT or the PTB (powers that be) or of the OBN (old boys network) the other 'us' vs 'them' rants or even the ad hominem named allegations. This goes beyond matters of identity in my mind. Unless we can behave by the code of conduct described in the WBCCI code of ethics and by what are generally considered appropriate guidelines for conducting business and working with each other, the rest of the issues are moot questions.

Me? I think WBCCI membership should reinforce the values behind choosing a trailer as the RV of choice and supplement that with a particular brand and style of trailer. But that matter is secondary to that of having a club where people are collegial, work together, conduct business in appropriate venues, trust each other and are honest with each other, encourage each other to get their rigs out and exploring the country, and are not burdened by feelings of entitlement.

Nearly all of the actual complaints and my own negative experiences have had to do with innapropriate individual behavior. I do not see people letting membership lapse because they don't like the voting method or the method by which the club conducts its business or because of the variety of RV's involved. The let it go because they encounter innapropriate behavior. That is why I consider that issue of highest priority. The behavior of the members is the most critical component of an organization's identity. The values used in selecting equipment are important but not the identity priority for me compared to that. I can tolerate SOB's on a campout (sorta' ;-) ) as I can tolerate differing points of view and odd quirks of others but I can't tolerate innapropriate behavior.

[rickandsandi]

Bryan-

I wish you luck and good will in your life down the road. I hope you met other like minded people and enjoy. I hope that a few days from now you will go back and reread the words you have posted and realize in your own wisdom that in your own way you have insulted forum members, put words into their mouths and have as many good politicains configured statements to fit your needs. This thread has lost all meaning of it's originator:

Simple poll for all WBCCI members AND prospective members.

You have heard the news that the WBCCI leadership is discussing the possibility of re-badging a THOR Class "A" motorhome as an Airstream. You can find details about this issue on these forums and at WBCCI's own web site (as well as SaveWally.org). Do you support the WBCCI's current plans to rebadge an SOB Class "A" motor home as an Airstream product.

A simple Yes or No will do. This is not a scientific poll, just an informal one.

I myself will admit I have in a fashion highjacked this thread. Now, as a gentleman I will step aside; I have had my word without assulting or injuring anyone and I will call it a day.

[bryanl]

I hope you met other like minded people and enjoy.

I don't. Its people with other views and opinions that add spice and learning.

But then, I do prefer honesty rather than innuendo and misperception.

The poll you suggest will happen, in due course and in its time. What you suggest is an innapropriate venue at an innapropriate time and without the kind of thoughtful consideration of views and opinions that lead to effective and productive outcomes.

I have had my word without assulting or injuring anyone

now this could be an interesting one to discuss!

[Buttercup]

Bryan,

I read your posts and find it is nearly impossible to get a "productive response" from you. We do get a lot of lectures. I know by past history that any serious challenge to anything you post is labeled as an ad hominiminimum (personal attack for those who don't speak Latin). It is for these reasons i have not replied directly to any of your posts. however, I feel the need to say a few things.

Watching this thread as it has developed has shown me 2 things. The members and prospective members of the WBCCI as represented here have strong feelings about the issues facing them and they also have a voice. And secondly, you are repeatedly suggesting, in a manner of speaking, that they keep quiet. Perhaps not directly, but certainly the suggestion is there.

Based on your previous post I feel compelled to speak out. I take offense to your "jihad" comment, especially coming from somebody whom I believe probably did not even serve his country as I have done. Wikipedia (Jihad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) offers several definitions of Jihad, none of which remotely describe the actions or positions of any of the people opposed to the actions of the IBT. taking a stand is not a Jihad. However, your comment does represent an excellent example of a passive-aggressive ad hominem. I will however point out to the good readers of this thread that simple things like women's suffrage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage) was the product of such vocal expressions. These women were also in more forceful ways told to be quiet, but that didn't work and, as we know, the world it is a better pace for it. IBT will be a better place for all of the members and prospective members taking the courage to speak out on the issues currently facing them.

AFAIK The IBT has not told anyone to stand down and/or to get out from anything.

. President Jim Franklin DID in fact tell more than one person to "stand down" at the delegates meeting in Salem. It is recorded and published at SaveWally.org. I suspect that you didn't actually attend the entire delegates meeting in Salem and you have not listened to the recordings which we published so you would not know this fact. He also clearly did invite members who were not happy to get a Winnebago and join another club. This at the IBT meeting in Perry, GA this month. That also is recorded and published. But I am assuming that you didn't hear that because you did not listen to the recordings and probably did not attend that meeting.

This brings me to another point...

That should be the concern: understanding the rules of procedure, getting the context right (which is why the recording is so misleading), and taking responsibilities to be accountable for working the system properly and holding it accountable.

and

Bad faith, when it is falsly based is also never a good idea.

. Does this apply to the actions of the IBT as well? Hmmm. The recordings are not misleading, in fact they give every member and prospective member listening the best opportunity to hear the meetings as they happened. It is probably the next best thing to being there. And dozens of people have thanked us at SaveWally for doing it. Also, as you can read on these forums, many are saying that they have been long time members of the WBCCI and have never seen actions like these (the MOHO issue for example) happen before. Where the context goes wrong is when, for example, the IBT publishes a story about the name change in the Blue Beret talking about the name change with only one side of the argument. Without ALL the facts, one can not make an informed decision about any topic. But in the area of accountability, this certainly seems to be a one way street. The IBT and the leadership are coming up with ideas, forming committees and pushing through motions. But they are not taking the responsibility to research if these ideas are actually in the best interest of the WBCCI. How do you form a committee and in the space of about a month take a survey and form a conclusion to drastically alter the clubs constitution ( and 50+ year history) and find that to be a responsible course of action? They are making blind decisions without fully educating themselves. Who holds them responsible? Us - not really likely when the board of officers is de facto laid out for the next dozen years or so. It is not so easy to use "proper procedures" and "codes of conduct" to vote a different kind of leadership in in a timely enough fashion to prevent the club from being irreparably damaged by a temporary leadership group who may or may not be qualified to be making these decisions. And as the current membership is showing, the damage is being done. BYW, there are groups out there with leadership that is actually able to grow membership - like HOG. It can be done.

How is this measured? If I use posts on these forums, I only get a bare handful. If I use what I hear at events and rallies I get even fewer. It I use what I saw at the last delegates meeting in Salem I see only one or two (there were far more people at the 'activists' reception than in the meeting gallery, for instance).

Unless I am mistaken, you are speaking of the Rock, Paper, Scissors contest we had prior to the delegates meeting? That was far from an "activists meeting" but quite a passive-aggressive suggestion on your part. Anyway, I must have missed seeing you there at that 'activists' reception, if it is the one you were talking about. Sorry, I was too busy meeting new friends and having a good time. Also, unless I am mistaken I never saw you at the delegates meeting. Were you there? Just wondering... There were plenty of people there who were concerned about the name change. There will be far more this year I guarantee with the MOHO issue. But not everybody can attend the delegates meeting. They will be speaking with loud voices at the unit and regional levels and, as you are well aware, are already doing so.

Currently, the WBCCI, through the leadership of the IBT makes a movement (in this case to rebadge SOB's and allow these into the club), then sells this movement to the membership with only the viewpoint of the IBT as the reasoning for the action. Where is the voice of those who oppose such folly? Silenced as you suggest? Trying to use the "code of conduct" to press a point? No, we are looking at the proposal and saying "No Way". And it isn't just one or two voices as you suggest, it is over a hundred voices as evidenced by this unscientific poll. 85% of the people who read this thread and who decided to vote expressed an opinion. They also feel it is a bad idea. Not all will come right out and write something, perhaps for fear of being lectured as to how they are misguided or worse, misled.

I do not see people letting membership lapse because they don't like the voting method or the method by which the club conducts its business or because of the variety of RV's involved.

Yes... but this time you may be wrong. membership is in freefall. A member a day or so is leaving.

You label speaking out on this subject with passion and verve as inappropriate behavior. Rosa Parks was convicted of "inappropriate behavior". I remembers something in history class about a tea party, sorry I wasn't invited, sounded like fun and perhaps a worthy cause. How about this...

Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it....This is the condition of children and barbarians, in whom instinct has learned nothing from experience.~George Santayana (1863-1952), Spanish-born American philosopher and writer primarily known for his theories of aesthetics, morality, and the spiritual life. Life Of Reason (1905), Vol. 1, Chap. 12, P.284

The membership is already offering opinion - the membership is still declining. I know, I know...It just the national trend, not just WBCCI - (see HOG comment above).

The posts you are making on this topic are in fact more like the kind of lectures that a master would be telling his students. Perhaps this is a product of that leadership seminar you took in Salem. To me, the "opinions" you express give me the impression of one who is now on the fast track to regional and eventually international leadership position. But your opinions are just one persons viewpoint. You have that right. Rather than take any challenge to your beliefs, or the PTB beliefs or he IBT beliefs as an ad hominiminuminum, take them as an ad lucem. The illumination...

I would ask you how you stand on the issue of the proposed rebadging of SOB's (after-all, that is what this topic is actually about) but I know from history that if I were to ask you, you would probably not actually answer the question, but rather offer up another lecture. So I won't ask....

[Cracker]

No way!

[jcanavera]

Originally Posted by Leipper

What I am seeing is people taking their disagreements personal. This is from the attacks on the IBT or the PTB (powers that be) or of the OBN (old boys network) the other 'us' vs 'them' rants or even the ad hominem named allegations. This goes beyond matters of identity in my mind. Unless we can behave by the code of conduct described in the WBCCI code of ethics and by what are generally considered appropriate guidelines for conducting business and working with each other, the rest of the issues are moot questions.
.

I think this stems when a person feels powerless and that the feeling is there is no input. I've been in touch with the current past president from the unit I used to belong to and this proposition which the IBT brought up and approved caught him by complete surprise. This change if brought forth on a discussion level to the local units could have given the proper feed back so that the item brought forth at IBT this winter would have had vast input. That way membership would have felt some ownership in the proposition.

Every thing I see so far tells me that the universe used to hammer out this proposal was of questionable representation and the ultimate result is something that many members feel that they are on the outside looking in. This is a gigantic issue and you can't deny that many people are going to have their backs up. When things are dealt like this, hostility ensues and the gloves come off. I myself don't like to see things get personal but on the other hand I perfectly understand the unhappiness vented on this level.

Jack

[mistral blue]

Hi Bryan,

Inappropriate behavior should never have to be tolerated. I think the best way we can educate others is to be open to learn ourselves, to be willing to examine our own ideas, and to evaluate and better understand the assumptions, ideas and values that lie behind our own conclusions.

From my experience, suggestions to the IBT have fallen upon deaf ears. I realize they have a tough job and are probably good decent folk. What I do not see from my leaders is vision. I don't see goals and, most importantly, I don't see any accountabilty. What I do hear on the tapes Bryan are people who are congratulating themselves as they preside over a club that is losing members in a growing market. Airstream, I believe, is making about 2000 units a year. Are you saying they are staying away from the club because they are hearing some not-so-delicate, sometimes inarticulate opinions on this forum? "We" are a just "bare handful" Bryan. How could we possibly have such an effect?

Both our leaders and our members have a duty to ask questions and really listen to the answers to discover what the problems are. Then, and only then, can you go about fixing them. If you can't clearly understand or won't accept what the problems are then you are not going to be successful in solving them. Clearly there is a lot of "noise" and "interference" that occurs on a forum such as this. It can get messy at times. It is the responsibilty of the members and leaders to slog through this muck to better understand themselves, the issues and their conclusions.

WBCCI has been suffering for quite a while. Part of this is due to the dilution of the Airstream brand. Part of it is due to demographics. Part is due to the price differentials of our RVs. But more important is that the mission and purpose of the club is getting lost. I don't like the direction the IBT is taking us. Here, on this forum, this thread, this post, I can help my fellow forum friends, you included Bryan, to help them see what I see and maybe spark some messy, over-the-top dialogue; some enthusiasm; some ideas and creativity; some solutions.

Are you with me Bryan?

Don

[bryanl]

Originally Posted by Jack

I think this stems when a person feels powerless and that the feeling is there is no input.

Yes indeed, the frustration can be very great and that can create a significant temptation towards letting loose.

This is a gigantic issue and you can't deny that many people are going to have their backs up.

Me, too. But that does not excuse 'bad' behavior.

Look at a previous post, it addresses me, personally and then generalzes my posts as complaining about ad hominem - contrast that to where I had studiously avoided mentioning whether an 'activists' gathering was pro or con (I know of at least one of both at the Salem I'rally) in order to stay on issue rather than on people.

What makes for a civilized society is when the buttons get pushed and we still maintain control of our behavior and our feelings. Bad decisions are often the result when people can't think straight because their emotions are in control. That is why a good process allows time - time for people to think, time for people to calm down, time for people to talk to each other, time for all of us to learn from each other and about each other's views and values. That is how we can make friendships and form healthy assocoations.

[bryanl]

Originally Posted by don

suggestions to the IBT have fallen upon deaf ears

I am wondering if you have seen more motions from Units than I have. (this is another measure of the insterest of the membership).

Create your suggestion as a motion of your Unit (form in the BB) for the action you seek. Work it through the chain. Of course, that means you take the risk of getting voted down at each level - the work involved and avoiding the risk are often reasons why folks try to bypass the process in my experience. But it also gives you the opportunity to present your case and learn what others think about it. That can help in planning future action.

Ears are only deaf if there are more important things to listen to. Making your issues important to listen to is why you need to build credibility for them. This credibility comes from good ideas that are properly presented and have sufficient support to give them weight. That support is both in the soundness and appropriateness of the rationale for the idea and also in the gathering of its sponsors and advocates.

Why aren't there prototype Unit motions being passed around? Get the form all filled out with good solid language and an accompanying case statement so Units can get it to a vote and pass it along as theirs without too much effort. See what happens.