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Old 12-24-2011, 02:08 PM   #827
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ISmith, here are a is an example of low mileage Airstream Class A's for way less than 100K

2002 Airstream Land Yacht 36 Xc, Santa Fe Springs CA - 99914295 - RVTraderonline.com

All Class A manufacturers use basically the same chassis's as Airstream did. Service and maintenance is not the issus. The house part of a Class A coach, most manufacturers use the same applicances as airstream. The only difference is badging.


We had the 300hp Cat 3176B in our 1999 Cutter Diesel and it was more than adequate to tow a Jeep Cherokee
The later gassers that Airstream made with the Vortec engines are little rockets.
We now have a 1984 Classic 270 Moho, with Chevy powered 454, and have in a pinch towed our 1999 Lexus 470. Altho, we wouldn't tow the LX for more than 150 miles radius of home, the Chevy 454 does OK. Nothing is going to rocket up steep hills. We have an SOB 42,000 lb Detroit diesel pusher coach, and on 5% grades towing the Lexus, we go up and DOWN the grade at 30-35mph.
With any rig, you should go down a steep hill in the same gear you went up or one lower. Use engine compression to slow down, not your brakes.
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Old 12-24-2011, 02:15 PM   #828
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I have been a WBCCI member for 6 years. I would hate to have to give it up. Thats one reason we have not looked at other brand trailers.
The rules are a little tricky. You do not have to give up your membership if you buy a OB. I think you can even attend dinners and unit events if you do not bring your OB traier. We have older members in our unit who have given up the camper because they are too old and they still regularly attend luncheons and sometimes rallies by staying in a cabin at the campsite.
However you cannot attend any event in the OB.
I feel your pain in having to esentially give up WBCCI, especially if it is a strong unit like ours. And here there is a WBCCI campground close buy so most of the members in our unit own a spot there.
For us, the appeal of the WBCCI and the caravans outweighed the thought of another brand of unit. But then I do not want a motorhome. I have been on caravans with, and talked to, a lot of Airstream motor home owners who wonder what they will do about replacing their unit. We had one caravan we were to go on canceled because the leaders bought a OB motorhome.
I do not know what the answer is for everybody. For us, it is just that we will keep the Airstream trailer and go on the caravans. Good luck in whatever you decide.
Given a chance, I will vote against the MH amendment just like I did last time. I will not leave the club if the MH admendment passes. I have no real quarrel with the IBT and how the WBCCI is run. I hope some of the IBT does give up on the MH issue and that they control the perks. Strengths of WBCCI so far are the fact that there is a real organization and rules. The caravan program is unique and well run. I do not care if the IBT gets travel money. I do not attend the International anymore. cheaper, 3amp, whatever would not make any difference to me. Given a chance I will probably vote against the amendment to put the delegate vote over the IBT. At first it seemd okay, but after several years of reading this board I just do not want to open the club up to the cat fight I see coming every year over what I consider to be fairly minor details.
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Old 12-27-2011, 07:05 PM   #829
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I think this was posted before, but it should be remembered—the energy and effort put forth on the MH issue is energy and effort diverted from solving the real problems of the WBCCI. And that energy and effort is spent by not only the IBT, but everyone associated with the club.

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Old 12-27-2011, 10:18 PM   #830
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And your point is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
I think this was posted before, but it should be remembered—the energy and effort put forth on the MH issue is energy and effort diverted from solving the real problems of the WBCCI. And that energy and effort is spent by not only the IBT, but everyone associated with the club.

Gene
No bout adout it.

But I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying,

(1) The IBT should stop introducing this unpopular amendment,

-or-

(2) the membership should simply give in and let the Thor motor home faction have their way and concentrate on solving the problems of the new Thor Motor Home Owners Association,

-or-

(3) both (1) and (2)?
.
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Old 12-27-2011, 10:47 PM   #831
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Sent to the leadership....

I sent the following to the leadership of WBCCI. Keep in mind that I have commitments to Cindy Reed that I will honor to the fullest extent that are not expressed here. She is an honest person and is counting on me to complete some tasks. I will honor those.....
BTW - 2 addresses were kicked back to me, John Boutwell and Louis Humble. These gentlemen will not get my message directly. John I met at the region 12 rally.

To President Heckenswiler, members of the Executive Committee, IBT Committee and Region 2 President,

Through various means, it was brought to my attention that there would be a vote in January at the IBT meeting about introducing an amendment to allow owners of motorhomes made by Thor, to be accepted in WBCCI. This vote was presented years ago and was voted down. WBCCI is a club for owners of Airstream travel trailers and motorhomes and thus shouldn't be changed.

I want to tell you a little about myself and my wife as we are not your typical members of WBCCI. First of all, if this motion should pass, neither my wife nor I plan to stay involved in WBCCI. That is not a single member loss, this equates to a 3 member loss to the club. You see, my wife and I maintain 3 FULL MEMBERSHIPS in WBCCI. One for each trailer we own. That means that WDCU will lose member #17330, NorCal unit will lose #11281 and the Four Corners Unit will lose #7830. But that is not the only losses the club will see...

I am also a member of the newly formed Electronic Communications Committee for WBCCI. As you know our task is to reform the club web site at a savings of thousands per year over what the club is paying an outside entity to run the current web site. The depth of work the ECC is doing for the club extends beyond the scope of just a web site - it involves saving the club tens of thousands over what it would have to pay to maintain its membership database, websites and electronics communications systems to support club functions. These items are taking an enormous amount of volunteer hours to create and should this motorhome issue pass will lose at least our efforts on this project.

My point is that if this motion is passed and adopted, my wife and I will have no option but to leave the WBCCI as the direction of the club will be a great departure from what we originally joined for. This is an Airstream club, not a THOR club or for that matter just some camping club for whatever trailer we can pack on the fairgrounds. This club was formed for Airstreams, by Airstreamers - it will destroy this club to have it "branch out" to whatever brand we can bring in to boost membership numbers. In fact, just the discussion of bringing in non-Airstream products is driving potential members away from the club.

My wife and I both just participated in a push to attract new membership with a new advertising campaign and we have been working with Fred Richardson to produce these ads. These ads are centered around Airstream products and the people who enjoy them. This ad campaign is not centered on any Thor product currently in production (except Airstream products). These ads focus on the single brand identity that the club has maintained since it inception. There is no value whatsoever for the Airstream product owner to enjoy in the WBCCI if the club is diluted at any level with THOR Class A Motorhomes. In fact, the acceptance of one member in a new THOR product will mean the loss of at least ten-fold of any Airstream product owner in WBCCI - you will certainly lose membership to a greater extent than you will gain. The research that the club has done years ago speak volumes as to how this will negatively impact the club. Please stop ignoring this evidence and stop this folly!

One last item to mention about myself and my wife - I am currently the 2nd Vice President and Webmaster for the Vintage Airstream Club. I will not speak on behalf of the VAC in any capacity on this subject. But I will say that so many in the VAC members are dismayed at this issue showing its head yet one again in WBCCI. It is clearly one issue which is affecting VAC membership numbers, which also impacts the WBCCI. The membership number within the VAC are dropping while vintage ownership numbers overall are thriving. We should be growing by leaps and bounds as an intraclub, but we do not. The largest reason given for not joining the VAC surrounds the politics and decisions that the WBCCI Leadership is taking. The VAC supports the club and wants to see it grow. But when our membership numbers suffers due to conditions that exist outside our little intraclub, it impacts us greatly.

I urge the leadership to instead look for ways to support the single brand identity of WBCCI that has allowed the club to thrive over the years and push away from the divisive prospects that are splitting the club into oblivion. There are ways to attract new Airstream members and the club should be exploring these options. This motorhome issue is chasing away those potential members in the name of trying to attract a new member-set. Recruitment of Airstream owners has to be our push and the effort needs to be much greater than any efforts we are currently doing.

Look at the History of the Avion Travelcade Club. It was a stable club until it was taken over by Fleetwood when they decided to try to expand membership numbers. It no longer was a single brand club, it allowed in any product made by Fleetwood. That club collapsed a few short years later in 2009 and what is left now is individual units trying to go it alone. - it simply collapsed. WBCCI will do the same if you try to bring in THOR motorhome owners.... Do we really want this history for the WBCCI? I do not think so. We should be looking towards real progressive recruitment and change within the club. Otherwise, we are doomed to follow the all to familiar path that other single brand clubs have taken - that which is straight into extinction.

Tim Kendziorski & Kimber Moore, WBCCI #17330, #11281 & #7830
VAC 2nd V.P. & Webmaster
ECC Committee member and Contributer
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:21 AM   #832
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Tim,

Great letter. I got three responses from mine. One, was from Barry Heckensweiler

"Jim
I agree that the Airstream is an icon.
The motion to allow other brands into WBCCI is in the Delegates hands.
They will be asked to vote on June 30 2012 at the Delegates meeting.
I as President of WBCCI and have one vote just like you. I vote with
my unit and the Delegate represents the unit at the meeting.
Have a great Holiday
Barry"

The two other responses, were:

Two Region Presidents are on our side. No MoHo
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:54 AM   #833
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Thumbs up

It's in the delegates' hands to vote yea or nay but much more than one vote equal power lies in the hands of the IBT to keep reintroducing the subject over and over. What lies in the hands of the IBT is the power to introduce and field new business of the WBCCI and much more lies within their domain and auspices and responsibility to its members than to merely cast their single vote as a member. Often in reply to a negative response over the moho issue it has been punted that this is simply a motion to put it before the general membership. I'm not sure just how many times and varieites of this I have heard thus far, but more than plenty, I assure you.

I am glad to hear that members are being responded to and that officers are presenting themselves and availing themselves to answer concerns. It's also heartening to hear of the active members writing and seeking redress in their initiatives. Communication always seems a real boon to sorting throught issues and finding the way of the majority. Recent history will show this an important advance.
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:20 AM   #834
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The International group is a very close knit group of old people who like to travel together and listen to each other. They do not have an ear for the regular members.

They know what is best for themselves and do not see a need for any real changes or improvements to the club. They do not understand what the regular or younger members want out of an Airstream RV club. They refuse to recognize we are in the business of providing entertainment for Airstream lovers. The club is in a competitive market and losing market share rapidly. We are down to only 10% of Airstream owners thinking WBCCI is worthwhile.

They do not want to grow the club with younger members, if it would mean they have to change the goals and programs offered by the club. They do not even like younger music. The 50's are fine for them. Pomp is fine. Getting dressed up and strutting your stuff on the stage is great. Keeping control of the club is a priority.
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:02 AM   #835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvite-F View Post
No bout adout it.

But I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying,

(1) The IBT should stop introducing this unpopular amendment,

-or-

(2) the membership should simply give in and let the Thor motor home faction have their way and concentrate on solving the problems of the new Thor Motor Home Owners Association,

-or-

(3) both (1) and (2)?
.
Nuvi, actually, 1 and 4. The amendment makes little sense to me and if it were up to me, it should be buried. But the main point was that it distracts from efforts to reform the club and people who care about the WBCCI should not let themselves get diverted.

One can posit that the IBT is doing this to derail efforts to reform the club—they could have figured that it would attract all the attention while they went about their business of maintaining and consolidating power. I don't know whether they are that clever or cynical.

Gene
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:27 AM   #836
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I guess this is a question for a parlimentarian, but does the IBT have the capacity simply to turn down a proposal? Put differently, aren't they required to vote on every motion that is placed before them?

Lynn
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:29 AM   #837
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Tim presents the case against the Amendment very well!

In my correspondence to our Region President and VPs, I focused on better use of the volunteer time available to the club. How many Amendments have we presented to add value for the majority of folks buying Airstreams? In the last 2 years, there have been several voted down. The focus for Airstream is on a very different demographic than our current (and past) membership. We need to spend our energy developing activities that attract and retain members of this Forum and TAC.

Our unit tried several new activities in the last couple of years. Those include hikes on the AT, kayak day trips, motorcycle rides through the mountains, a winery visit and tasting, and a couple of informal rallies in the off-season.

The focus on adding value was very clear with the addition of the Spirit of Cleveland Rally! We had a couple of WBCCI Rallies (Poconos Race, and Wally's Birthday Bash) come and go, before they could add value.

I fully support the Marketing work that Tim describes. The units, regions, and the International must provide benefit to retain these folks.

So, I think the issue of other brands should be left, and with it, the divisive discussions and vote by the units and delegates. We need to work on our future, rather than re-plowing old ground.
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:47 PM   #838
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I guess this is a question for a parlimentarian, but does the IBT have the capacity simply to turn down a proposal? Put differently, aren't they required to vote on every motion that is placed before them?

Lynn
Simply put, standard procedure is that every motion made and seconded must be acted upon—voted down, tabled, or approved. They can be amended as well. A motion to amend requires a second as well and there can be a series of motions to amend. Some need no second (nominations) and sometimes the chair may accept a motion without a second at his discretion.

All this can be changed by bylaws or other rules specific to an organization.

The first part of your question is too vague for me to answer. It depends on the nature of the "proposal"—maybe it can be taken back, maybe not. Assuming that is was a motion made in the past, it may be possible to withdraw it by another motion, but one would have to look at the organization's rules and Roberts' Rules.

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Old 12-28-2011, 12:57 PM   #839
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So what you're saying, Gene, is that as long as a motion is made properly (I don't know what requirements and/or procedures the WBCCI has here), then the IBT has no choice but to put it on the agenda for a vote. Is that correct?


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Old 12-28-2011, 02:15 PM   #840
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Lynn, according to Robert's Rules, yes (probably), but I don't know what the WBCCI rules are that may supersede Robert's. There also may be Ohio state law requirements that affect the situation. You have to check everything to see how they relate to each other. A bylaws rule may be illegal. Typically bylaws, constitutions, articles of incorporation and other organizational documents may contradict each other or take precedence over Robert's. Rules may be vague and subject to controversy. A parliamentarian may rule incorrectly and then someone would have to appeal the decision. Actually the parliamentarian usually just makes a recommendation to the chair and the chair rules on the procedure. It would probably take a 2/3 vote to overturn it of Robert's is followed.

Obviously, everyone needs a team of lawyers with them at all times. You could be the expert linguist standing by if needed. But those willing to challenge things should learn Robert's Rules (and know which edition the WBCCI uses), all the organizational documents and try to look at Ohio Statutes. I guess no one will want to check case law too. In my experience, procedural rules are often broken, but few people know it. You have to pick your battles. It is easy to screw up a meeting where rules are ignored or bent, but you have to decide just what you want to expend energy on. If properly applied, Robert's Rules do promote an orderly and fair process, but organizational rules may not do so.

It can be boring and confusing to read Robert's Rules. A lot of it is meant for large, plenary assemblies and not board meetings and you have to understand what makes sense for a smaller meeting. People with detail oriented minds and a good command of the language do better at this. Then you have to be good at arguing your point quickly. This can give you something to do while the snow piles up in Angel Fire.

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