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Old 02-16-2008, 09:21 PM   #1
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Wbcci Mal 806 Asap?

If you are a member of the WBCCI with a MAL status and would like to remain a MAL you may want to comment over on the WBCCI forum to let your voice be heard. You may be interested in knowing that the winds of change have turned and instead of hoping for voting privileges you may just find yourself hoping to retain your status at all. It appears that MALs are now being perceived as a problem and efforts are being made to assign members to units to eliminate the class as a whole.

The suggestion is "True MALs could join a different unit every year for a 130+ years and sample the club, one unit at a time... "

Alright, something is very wrong with this. Speak up or you may find youself swept under the rug for good.

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Old 02-16-2008, 10:24 PM   #2
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I've copied the post here for the benefit of those who will not be following the link.

"I'm getting through these reports in my spare time and I've found an item of particular interest.

Membership should be the number one priority with leaders in this club and all the other issues that could easily be changed to effect a positive change (growth) in those numbers.

I don't understand why the club even offers MAL status but it's clear that most MALs receive 10 issues of the Blue Beret a year, a dues renewal notice, and little else.

If the club just assigned every new member to a unit close to their homes (the region maps generalize unit locations) then new members would likely not only receive twice the amount of WBCCI material annually, but they'd also be fully aware of more local opportunities available to them.

Frank Carson understands that MALs are a real issue and has tried to have Regions take up the conversion cause.

Unless Region 3 has an overwhelming monopoly on MALs it looks like that word isn't getting out.


"It was requested by me that the Region Membership Chairman contact the MALs, living within their Region, and try to change them over as regular members to a local Unit. As of this writing, thirteen (13) MALs have been changed. Ten (10) in Region 3, and three (3) in the other eleven Regions. This is not a good showing."

How is it possible that Region 3 has outperformed ALL the other REGIONS combined in assigning new member MALs to local units?

Why don't we just take new members and assign them to their local unit and inform them that they can move their membership to ANY other unit at renewal time if they so choose?

If you're in WA and don't want anything to do with a local unit then sign up for FL. Yeah, you'll get 6+ FL newsletters a year, but you'll probably save on dues in the process! True MALs could join a different unit every year for a 130+ years and sample the club, one unit at a time...

Our leadership should be able to fix this problem in short order. Even the 1st IPP is nearly a stranger to his home unit, as he's hardly ever there, but he belongs to a unit none the less. What's good enough for the 1st IPP should be good enough for any member. Let's fix something...


Leo G
Wally Byam Caravan Club# 6006/VAC/CAC
Metropolitan New York Unit, 1st VP "


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Old 02-16-2008, 11:41 PM   #3
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hi c

i'm sure my reply will surprise some folks...


the home office, the ibt bobble heads AND the fledgling unit officers all DESPISE unit #000...

unit #000 has been a thorn in the otherwise brain dead leadership for years...

it's ironic that the unit # is so fitting, because...

0 rights
0 privledges, and
0 respect/regard

are the hallmarks of how unit #000 folks are largely treated, and have been treated for many years...

by the home office, the 'vp' cowardships and ibt bobbleheads.

it's NO SECRET they've wanted to ditch this designation for a long time.

what has primarily held them back is the fear of losing 8,000-56,000$ each year in dues.

still, and given the almost unanimous hate for this member class...

they should have acted long ago... if the bobble heads had ANY spine or just 2 firing neurons.

i have suggested to them several times something along this line, primarily like this...

1. notify all folks that join #000 that it is ONLY a temporary/transitional unit
2. and that during the first year they must select some established unit.
3. IF they don't declare for an established unit they will be assigned to ONE OF THESE 2...
4. wdcu (east of the river) or 4cu (west of the river)
5. since these 2 units have established voting processes that can be done online.
6. alternatively they could be assigned to the ONE UNIT in each region that can handle voting by the widest variety of ways.

option 6 is the least desirable because there are TOO MANY REGIONS currently.

instead of course they are taking the same brainless approach to this otherwise great idea,

as they did with the name change and moho issue...

in other words their approach will only SPEED THE DECLINE AND DEATH that is happening.

more coming

all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
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Old 02-17-2008, 12:39 AM   #4
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i posted these comments in another thread but they fit here too.

so i will elaborate on some of the points and reply to some of the relevant postings from others....

Originally Posted by 2airishuman
unit #000 is still the largest defined block,

unit #000 continues to add the most new members month and yearly...

unit #000 members pay the most and...

unit #000 members give the most money DIRECTLY to 'club central'

unit #000 needs to be recognized...

unit #000 should be appreciated for the potential it holds...

unit #000 may be a temporary stop for some but,

unit #000 is the GOAL of many, to be 'at large' within the club.

unit #000 is the key to long term INTERNATIONAL club prosperity...

unless and until unit #000 is viewed in a different light...

membership and MOST local units will continue to decline.

even the few fun, healthy, active, growing local units need unit #000...

currently only a few local leaders 'get' the value of unit #000.

and fewer still want to EMPOWER the members of unit #000...

the current policy of member apartheid is an old poison that weakens the whole...

give FULL MEMBERSHIP privileges to unit #000...

power to the people at large!

well the feb. bb arrived last week, it lists approx 90-100 new members...

and 1/3rd are unit #000 that's correct, 30 MORE PALs joined; this happens about every time they run the list.

the mem chair suggests reviewing the folks in a given region and trying to get them to join a local unit....

this notion might work for a few, but ONLY a few...

and that was the ONLY idea express for boosting the PALs experience....

otoh the same member chair suggested RESIGNING folks who...
1. sold their trailer
2. got NO trailer or moho
3. don't travel or camp at all or in any other brand unit...
4. sign these folks back up TO the clud/unit because they will still be useful CONTRIBUTORS!!!

--well that's hogwash folks. mouthfulls of hogwash.

moosetags very clearly explained HOW MANY MANY COUPLES FEEL in his post...

Originally Posted by moosetags
We are avid Airstreamers, and very active campers. In the last year and a half, we have spent over 200 nights in our Lucy, and pulled her almost 30,000 miles all over the country.

We had been WBCCI Members at Large. It is unfortunate that the acronym for this class of membership is MAL. It almost makes it sound like these members are the "malcontent" wing of the club, and therefore prohibited from voting on any club issues, and forced pay the highest dues. I consider these policies stupid on the part of the club.

Last year we joined the newly forming 4CU in New Mexico in order to have a vote in the Moho issue, and to save a few bucks on our WBCCI dues

SuEllyn and I are not congregators. We prefer to do our own thing, and are not generally into group activities. We are not antisocial, but our "herding instinct" is limited. We have been to several Airstream rallies and have enjoyed them, but would not want to make rallies a stready camping diet. Caravans are not our thing, either. I would as soon have a root canal as go on a caravan.

Maybe if WBCCI treated its Members at Large with the respect and consideration that they deserve, the club would not be declining in membership.

We plan to remain WBCCI members because it is the Airstream club and we want to be a members of it.

There are more Airstreams and Airstreamers out there than ever, and WBCCI membership continues to decline. Maybe there is a message there.

so instead of despising PALs and trying to pigeonhole PALs, the ibt and home office should be trying to establish and provide VALUE (not values) for these folks....

it would be very easy to survey JUST unit #000 and find out what value they seek or would like the club to offer...

-those that wanna vote COULD easily do so through ANY unit that has online voting, withOUT JOINING the unit.

-a simple 'voting' plan could be in place quickly and in use quickly for all international or club wide issues.

-those that want MORE TRAVEL RELATED SERVICES could review a package of services like fmcs or goodsam offer...

(a credit card with an a/s logo for example)

-other services might be trip/route planning like aaa or koa...

-REAL DISCOUNTS for camping at MAJOR CHAINS (like KOA)...

-a special online gathering spot (on the aforum or wb' site) with chat times, those seeking travel partners, or impromptu caravan and rallies...

-a booklet (print and online) for first time or beginner campers, filled with the sort of stuff that gets shared at club meetings or on unit websites. this wouldn't be hard to assemble and each month a new 'section' on some key topic could be sent out to the unit #000 folks...

this is a short list, i've got dozens of other things PALs might like, but a survey of the PALs would better focus on MEETING THEIR TRAVEL NEEDS...

i posted that unit #000 is the FUTURE of the club and believe it....

they should be treated like CUSTOMERS who may soon spend time and energy and money toward improving the entire club...

instead of like flakes that get brushed off and blown away.

b'cup made this reply....

Originally Posted by Buttercup
Well, some may find this interesting when discussing this topic. The VAC currently has 760+ members and of that we have currently 96 members at last count which means about 12%. However, MALs account for about 20% of the new members joining the club, at least since I have taken over as the membership chair.
So I go out of my way to work with the people coming in and tell them about the units in their area and the dues, etc... And in the event a new members is not happy with the unit near them I encourage them to join WDCU for a dollar because it is cheaper and better than being a MAL.
I agree in part with what 2air says but I do believe that it is not the MALs that make up the future of the club but rather the units who adapt, modernize and maintain a progressive vision who are the future of the club. 4CU and WDCU is a prime example of the way it should be done in my opinion. And in case anybody is wondering - the unit with the most members in the VAC is the WDCU with 73...and growing.
i am thrilled to see b'cup is the mem chair now for the old trailer club.

i've no doubt he will be organized and very welcoming to the folks who join, and they won't be scared off by dried egg on his chin or ensure breath...

twink offered this post ...

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
Interesting...thanks for posting this.

So, if these are even remotely near acutal (taking into consideration a +/- factor as this is not scientific in any way), then what I am hearing is that on average, about 3.9% is what is being lost annually (within the last 5 year window). I wonder how many of these departing were from "natural causes" vs. how many have simply left? The real question also is, where are the nearly 10k (2000 new units/yr for last 5 years) new Airstream owners? That number too high? Then where are the 5000 (1000 new units/yr for the last 5 years) new Airstream owners?

If this trend continues for the most part on course as it has, then it may be a fair estimate that 10 years from now, 40% of the current membership could be gone. In 20 years, nearly 80% of the membership could be gone unless there is some stop to the exodus by means of both some kind of recruitment or rentention. Could the remaining 20% left in 20 years be the units we are talking about today that have been bucking the trend of the overall org?

Could this mean that the *glory* days of WBCCI are behind it and that these hanfuls of units become really it?
well the true glory days for a/s production were the 70s when 5,000 units were produced yearly and the decade resulted in the most a/s units EVER PRODUCT (before or after)...

and the glory days for the club coincided with time, when the club was OWNED and SUPPORTED and largely operated with the full assistance of the a/s corporation.

after the club was given independence by a/s, the wb' decline began and continues today.

there is NO evidence of ANY revitalization of the wb,
there are pockets of bloom (some units and intraclubs)

and these happen with folks saying "ignore the international, ibt or club polictics, and just come have fun with us!"

there are 135+ units.

--perhaps 15 are thriving, growing, changing, attracting fun new members and otherwise filling the local members needs.

--another 20 or 30 or considered 'healthy because they maintain the status quo...whatever that is.

these healthy units don't do much, don't attack new young families and aren't trying to make the changes that are critical to become like the top 15.

mostly they are happen with the status quo, isolated from new member pools, and 'generational units' that function like a family, because THEY ARE ALL RELATED...

==that leave about 100 units that are dying or dysfunctional or fictional units... yes FICTIONAL units.

so i'll close this post responding to streamer23, who is doing the unit tabulation.....

Originally Posted by streamer23
Well 2air it seems that any mention of MAL's will bring a response from you....It's funny,I have a lot of PAL's that are regular unit members.

Interesting that you would intentially re-up late to avoid the directory.A man of mystery.I guess I will have to adjust my PAL total each year to accomodate you.

You show a lot of energy and passion for the club.It would be great if we all could work together towards a common goal....:
i "LEARNED" the reup late trick from a unit officer, who suggested it.

see there are LOTS of folks that don't want their home address published in a book, in part because if you travel enough the HOUSE IS EMPTY, so why advertise it.

the home office ONLY HAS ONE DATABASE for member information.

apparently the concept of multiple versions for different purposes hasn't been introduced there....

so there ONE DATABASE/SPREADSHEET is used for member mailing, bb, mailings, the directory and the renewal form...

IF you register and ASK to be left out of the directory, they simple DELETE all your info from the database.

that will keep you out of the booklet, but also means NO BB and NO renewal and NO registration packet for the international...

so this wise officer suggest that to simply stay of the booklet, rejoin LATE.

then one will receive all of the mailing , including a booklet that doesn't have your info in it....

jeez, with just a couple of keystrokes they could have multiple databases, one for renewals, one for the booklet, one for the bb and one for international rally goes....

but that wouldn't be how it's been done for years.....



a few party boats are floating along

for the main vessel to reverse direction and survive it needs an entirely new ship and new crew and future destination....
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
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Old 02-17-2008, 12:44 AM   #5
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All members are equal, but some members are more equal than others.

We are often tried to be persuaded that it is absolutely necessary for the well being of the entire WBCCI to follow the so good and rational leaders that are more or less interchangable, without having their own individual identities. There is an absolute fusion that occurs within their ranks. The alienation and sequestering of the International Board of Trustees results from repeated failures of regular members to integrate into the positions of leadership where one may not be considered to "belong" by the nominating committee.

I think MALs should decide upon their own destiny, but without a vote that is not possible. A change in the by-laws could give the vote to MALs. Why divide the many MALs that exist, why not simply have a website to conduct business? That would be truer and better represent them than sending checks to randomly chosen geographical bases in order to have a voice. Relocating MALs on paper, if not participating in the physical unit they are affiliated with, gives them no further advantage than they have now, IF they would be allowed to vote. It equates to submitting fraudulent addresses to qualify for something not entitled to. This would only require that the unit requirements be amended to not reflect geographical areas and to rename units without location to be accurate and not just an absurd work around from rules that no longer are applicable. Which is easier? What do MALs want to do? Haven't they always had the right to join a unit if they so chose? Are we talking about more motions and rules to go through the works? Why spend that much time and energy preventing the vote when it would be much easier to give them the vote? And on that note...

Sometimes I'm right and I can be wrong
My own beliefs are in my song
The vintage, the new age, the Board of trustees
Makes no difference what group I'm in
I am everyday member, yeah yeah
There is a polo shirt who can't accept the red coat
For living in a motorhome trying to be an Airstream
And different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and scooby dooby doo-bee
Oh sha sha - we got to park together
I am no better and neither are you
We are the same whatever we do
You love me you hate me you know me and then
You can't figure out the bag l'm in
I am everyday member, yeah yeah
There is a silver tube that doesn't like the base camp
For bein' such a different one that will not fit the icon
And different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and scooby dooby doo-bee
Oh sha sha-we got to park together
There is the unit one that won't accept the MAL one
That won't accept the red coat that won't accept the white tube
And different strokes for different folks

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Old 02-17-2008, 01:03 AM   #6
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the 'affilicate status' designation.

clubs with lots of affiliates RAVE about how great it is...

"they come to stuff, and they help,
they bring wisdon and energy and they add to our events"

this is a common paraphrasing of how specific units view their plentiful affiliate members.

the problem is that the affiliate is HOLDING ON to a 2nd or 3rd or 1st vp position in another small lifeless, inactive, distant unit

with a minimum of actual members near the geographic unit location.

in other words the climbing officer is AWAY playing with a fun mistress unit,

while his homely old unit goes no where and does nothing...

he/she does this to preserve their step on the bobblehead ladder up...

so affiliates are a primary and forcefully destructive factor in the 100 units that are in the abyss and sinking.

which means the current affiliate status is a primary factory in the ENTIRE CLUB DECLINE

the affiliate status needs a significant revision,

that forces all unit leadership to focus on THEIR OWN UNIT over any seasonal affiliation.

all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:27 AM   #7
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so while i personally favor a...

'national 4 winds-4 seasons-4 directions, 4-fun unit'...

that could conduct required club functions online, vote on line and communictate online or with other modern media....

we could also camp, rally, caravan or gather IN PERSON anywhere that works for the members!

we could still meet all the club obligations and sanctions and benefit from the club experience on many issues.

we could still elect officers/delegates and attend the international as a block...

just like any geographically limited unit.

getting organized isn't difficult IF other units and the main intra clubs and the home office helped.

otoh simply assigning new #000 folks to local (sick/dead) units will do NOTHING TO RETAIN most of them....

i have received call and letters from the few local units in my region...

while they are friendly wholesome people....

THEY SCARE ME and BORE me and intrude on me, AND MANY OTHERS FEEL THIS WAY!!!!

and their planned events feel like having dental work while watching C_SPAN-2, and in line for paying tags/taxes...

a different, fresher marketing approach is needed to entice and encourage and enjoy this largest membership pool...

all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
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Old 02-17-2008, 04:26 AM   #8
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My goodness. I would think the main goal would be to avail airstreamers' to the fun and benefits of the WBCCI. The fact that there are several ways to belong is appealing. As in most endeavors in life, there will be a few that are actively involved, while the rest are along for the ride. It's just the way it is.

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Old 02-17-2008, 06:54 AM   #9
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Maybe if all the MALs, along with other not so satisfied unit memebers, were to join WDCU or 4CU, the IBT might take notice.

When we first joined WBCCI, we emailed our closest unit 3 or 4 times trying to get information. We never got any response. We now figure that this is one of those units that thinks that this Internet thing is just a passing fad and they they do not need to pay any attention to it. So we stayed MALs for a while. We later joined the 4CU so that our voice could be heard on the moho issue.

The 4CU does all of their business electronically, including the newsletter. This is where it's at. Those who refuse to recognize this fact might as well go ahead and get themselves a room at the nursing home.

SuEllyn & Brian McCabe
WBCCI #3628 -- AIR #14872 -- TAC #FL-7
2015 FC 25' FB (Lucy) with HAHA
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:31 AM   #10
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The MAL does have an appeal that is not directly addressed. Unit 000 should be for members that fulltime, or spend a lot of time somewhere away from a particular home unit. In our case, we were planning to go the MAL route because it doesn't make sense to have a "home unit" that is thousands of miles away, and we can't participate in their activites. We may not get back to the area that Florida Springs calls home for a couple of years or more.
Unit 000 could be made a real unit, with real members, and real officers, but I think many people become (and stay) MALs because:
1-they want to belong to, and support the club by being members, but:
a-don't live near a unit that has activities they want to participate in
b-don't live near enough a unit period (several hundred miles away

2-they don't like the direction any local units are going, and want to distance themselves from them.
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:32 AM   #11
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There are many reasons for an individual or couple to decide to join the WBCCI as a Member-At-Large as opposed to a specific Unit.

Each Unit also offers an Affiliate Status type of membership. (or some do anyway)

One of the biggest miss communications that I see - is that WBCCI is treating the Member-At-Large as an affiliate member class. And this is WRONG.

The simple concept and philosophy of a constitution is...

The key word is MEMBER and members in any organization by the constitution is afforded RIGHTS. The first right of a Member and single most important RIGHT of any MEMBER who is paying a fee that is consistent with all Member Classes - IS THE RIGHT TO VOTE. The additional fees prescribed are the Unit Fee and or program fees - not the right to vote fee. The fees set by the unit are based on the funds they require to run their unit - not the funds required to exercise a VOTE. As with the Intra- Clubs they are program fees not the right to vote fee.

This is a simple let me - repeat simple by-law change. That will cost this association peanuts compared to the possible removal of the Membership Category.

All the other words that are spoken hear - are feelings & politics

Members-At-Large are Members.

I hope that this WBCCI administration will not waist it's members money AGAIN and just ensure that their By-Law Committee - identifies restrictive and prohibitive by-laws to its memberships growth and make the sensible, economical and logical solution.

As for the logistical issues, political issues that have been listed here - again these are all different and have different weight in each of the Units, and each Member-At-Large has their reason to not join a unit - the same right as a member has to join a particular Unit and for those who are lucky to live in an area of a particular region that has multiple Units to choose from - to those who don't is yet another inequity of the Structure.

Perhaps as the 20/20 committee identifies the new organizational plan - that times will change then number of MALS will fluctuate or migrate to Units of their choice.

Thus I see the MAL as an opportunity for a Member that resides in that geographical void with a choice of multiple units available to join.

WDCU was the closest Unit to join - outside my geographical unit jurisdiction where I could exercise my right to choose.

The Unit fees are not relevant $1.00 or $20.00 I had to join a unit to vote and that is just plan wrong.
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Old 02-17-2008, 09:34 AM   #12
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Hey Leo
Originally Posted by 65GT

"I think MALs should decide upon their own destiny, but without a vote that is not possible. A change in the by-laws could give the vote to MALs. Why divide the many MALs that exist, why not simply have a website to conduct business?"

You can't find two people in a room to agree on how to get regular members a real vote -- never mind a MAL. It's not happening...
We are all too sorely aware of the difficulties trying to impliment change in the WBCCI, now aren't we? But it's never stopped us before. Never say never my friend. Don't stop looking ahead. Keep your eyes on the prize. Every journey starts with the first leg.

MALs decided their destiny long ago. They're disengaged. Even with a name change and SOBs charging down the pike -- even being fully informed that they could have a say by making a single phone call and change to a unit with electronic voting -- even if that was a temporary one year classification -- they didn't budge.

Well you know that is not true. It was at your urging that I set my MAL status aside and signed with WDCU just for the vote, and many others did the very same as supported by the stats. But in practice the paper reassignment to a unit ultimately was merely a legal loophole to get a vote, which I see you are still advocating. I say we get "real" and get our due voting rights and stop trying to circumvent the system and work to change it to fit the current needs. It is the system that is disengaged.

If you're expecting MALs to come forward and fight for MAL status, well, I'm hoping I wake up one morning and find my '53 all polished out. Good luck with that one...
Well thank you Leo, that is so kind of you to wish us success. But just wishing doesn't make things happen. Can we not persuade you to pick up where you left off on your Save Wally vow to get MALs a vote with 1M1V? We were all hopeful then, now you seem to have become a synic.

Do not tell us that it cannot be done. That wool (beret) pulled over your eyes has changed you. We have the numbers and our resources channeled into the club and deserve recognition. I don't think the old psychological elephant tether is going to work with this saavy group of members.

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Old 02-17-2008, 10:56 AM   #13
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I guess I fit somewhere along with Moosetags. When I first bought my Airstream, I joined the Tidewater Unit here in Virginia - but I didn't participate. Page and I just don't rally or caravan. With the exception of joining the Balloon Fiesta last year - which was a blast. Perhaps it was the unstructured nature of the beast that made it so much fun for us. But that's the way we are.

I have been maintaining membership; however the previous two years, I was too late for the Unit to be included in the directory. So without the directory, and without the desire to rally, what did the Unit have to offer me?

The thing is, I believe that if you join a club (read "Unit") then you not only have rights but obligations. I wasn't willing to pull my share of obligations, so did not want to continue as a member.

Yours truly rambling -

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Old 02-18-2008, 04:54 PM   #14
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You know the rules.


I'm putting my "nomex" suit on for the flames that will come my way.

It's like this, "most" MAL understand after being a "MAL" for a year "know" they do not get a vote, period. Many of us have tried to get "MAL's" to join a unit were they "can" vote. An email was sent out to over 300 MALs last year asking them if they wanted to join the WDCU so they "could" vote. We got "less" than 10% wanting to move to the WDCU so they could vote and "save" $14.00 on their dues. What's that tell me, 90% of the MAL's "DON'T CARE" about voting!!

So, when the remaining 10% set back and complain about not being able to vote, after they are giving a way to do so. Why should I care?? If you "choose" to stay a MAL, you "CAN NOT VOTE" period. In fact, you "don't" even have anyone to "represent" you to the WBCCI leadership in reguards to making a change. This brings up another thing. Why should anyone that is a member of a unit carry your water for you? If "you" (being a MAL) want to try and make a change, join a unit, get that unit to start a motion to make the change. Understand, this could take sometime to sell the unit on the idea. Why would they want to make a change?

Some will say that many MAL's don't want to feel like they "Have to participate in a unit activities". Does one "really" think the leadership of the WDCU thinks when a person from "Utah" joins the WDCU (based out of Washington, DC) we will be seeing them at rallies??? Trust me on this one guys, we don't plan on seeing them at rallies here on the east coast, we understand they are looking for a way to vote and we are "MORE" than happy to fill that need.

Everyone needs to understand, if you look, this is a unit in the WBCCI that "WILL" fill your needs. But, if you "choose" to stay a MAL, you know the rules.

Paul Waddell
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