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Old 02-18-2008, 06:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rideair
Ok,

I'm putting my "nomex" suit on for the flames that will come my way.

It's like this, "most" MAL understand after being a "MAL" for a year "know" they do not get a vote, period. Many of us have tried to get "MAL's" to join a unit were they "can" vote. An email was sent out to over 300 MALs last year asking them if they wanted to join the WDCU so they "could" vote. We got "less" than 10% wanting to move to the WDCU so they could vote and "save" $14.00 on their dues. What's that tell me, 90% of the MAL's "DON'T CARE" about voting!!

So, when the remaining 10% set back and complain about not being able to vote, after they are giving a way to do so. Why should I care?? If you "choose" to stay a MAL, you "CAN NOT VOTE" period. In fact, you "don't" even have anyone to "represent" you to the WBCCI leadership in reguards to making a change. This brings up another thing. Why should anyone that is a member of a unit carry your water for you? If "you" (being a MAL) want to try and make a change, join a unit, get that unit to start a motion to make the change. Understand, this could take sometime to sell the unit on the idea. Why would they want to make a change?

Some will say that many MAL's don't want to feel like they "Have to participate in a unit activities". Does one "really" think the leadership of the WDCU thinks when a person from "Utah" joins the WDCU (based out of Washington, DC) we will be seeing them at rallies??? Trust me on this one guys, we don't plan on seeing them at rallies here on the east coast, we understand they are looking for a way to vote and we are "MORE" than happy to fill that need.

Everyone needs to understand, if you look, this is a unit in the WBCCI that "WILL" fill your needs. But, if you "choose" to stay a MAL, you know the rules.
Are you speaking from the standpoint of a MAL, Paul? So many in WBCCI speak for or toward other members so I ask you, are you saying you are surprised that there is such a high number of MALs that will not forsake their status to use the dubious "workaround" to secure their rightful but denied vote? And your inference would be?...... Perhaps there is another take on that. Are there a high percentage of vinatge or new Airstreams in your statistics? I know your activities and unit is targeted at vintage owners.

I think you found your answer, it isn't a matter of savings, or hook or by crook, if you don't expect to see them and visa versa then to thine own self be true...we may not want to just "pass" to get benefits withheld from us. Don't cry for me WDCU. You don't see where the crux lies.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:18 PM   #16
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Let me say that “I’m no longer the Prez of the WDCU and by no means speak for the WDCU in anyway, shape or form”. The views that I’m stating are “my” own, period.

With that said, the WDCU has members that own new trailers, old trailers even “square” trailers and motor homes. The president of the WDCU uses a late 80’s 34 footer, a trustee of the WDCU lives in New Mexico and owns a “Square-stream”. So, one can see there is a little bit of everything in the WDCU and everyone that wants to play a part in the unit has a chance to do so. Every WDCU activity I’ve been to have everything from a new 34’ with slide outs to a vintage Bambi, so everyone is welcome to join in the fun.

All I tried to do last year when I was President of the WDCU was to “offer” (even paid some converting MAL’s WDCU unit dues (only a buck) at the last minute because there was not time for them to send a check) to the MAL’s a way for there voice to be heard. Never, did I ask anyone for anything other than to cast his or her vote (yes/no to the MOHO issue). I understood I would never get a chance to meet many of the converting MAL’s face to face. I was more than OK with that. This year the WDCU had some converted MAL’s not renew (much like yourself) not sure of the reason. Some have found units close to home they like (which I encourage); some have left since there’s no major thing (like the MOHO issue) being voted on this year, some have just left the WBCCI all together (which is sad to see).

You say, and I quote:
I ask you, are you saying you are surprised that there is such a high number of MALs that will not forsake their status to use the dubious "workaround" to secure their rightful but denied vote?” “YES” I am surprised! I don’t understand why anyone would be a MAL when they could join one of a couple different units that asks nothing of them and allows them all the rights from voting to holding office and most of the units would save them money by being a member.

What I find funny is some of the members that have a hard time with the IBT and how they spend your dues gives them even more money by being a MAL. Instead of the WBCCI only getting $55.00 the MAL gives them $70.00 bucks to spend! That to me does not make since.

Don’t get me wrong Carol, if you want to fight for the voting rights of the MAL’s, I wish you the best of luck. For those MALs who want a vote and don’t mind being a member of a unit that asks nothing of them in return, there are a couple options out there for you.

I’ve given a possible answer to the problem, if you don’t like my answer, I’m sorry.

The question I have is this:
If a motion came before the membership of the WBCCI to change the constitution to allow MAL the right to vote, “How do you plan to vote on it?” remember, as a MAL you have no right to vote! Would you then “forsake your status to use the dubious "workaround" to secure your rightful but denied vote?” My guess, you will join a unit like you did before (to vote on the MOHO issue) faster than I can say WBCCI.
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:11 PM   #17
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Some People just don't get it....

It is not about casting the VOTE - it is about the RIGHT to CAST the vote...


And how many paying members of the UNITS actually CAST their votes Fellas.... And again how many were assigned to them via the other crazy structure of delegates voting in a weighted vote system.

The difference is they Paid the $55.00 (which seems to be the actual base member fee) for the right to -

Thus a MAL should have the same right to choose. Whether it be to join a unit or not or vote or not - but do not treat members differently in the respect of the right to vote.

You guys are contradicting yourselves - one minute there is no need for a MAL and yet the concept to join a unit that will not be exercised as a "local unit" in the spirit of the reason for a unit - is being set aside in different type of unit such as WDCU and 4CU It would be a heck of a lot simpler for HQ just to issue the voting ballets to the MAL to submit if they so choose on any given issue.

What is all the fuss over anyway.....
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:16 PM   #18
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Oh and while on the topic. I have never heard of a Board Member that is assigned the class of "Member-At-Large that DID NOT have a vote on any given board of Directors....

The use of MAL is the same concept - and it is and has been applied incorrectly by WBCCI for years. In fact the MAL should in fact be called an Affiliate Class - as it is that particular class that is NOT afforded a vote - but then their fee is proportionately lowered due to not having the BASIC right of a full member. The RIGHT to VOTE

Don't hung up on the word VOTE but think more of the RIGHTS of a MEMBER

The right to participate
The right to receive information
The Right to Change the organizations direction via a VOTE.
The Right to accept its Directors - via a VOTE
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rideair
...An email was sent out to over 300 MALs last year asking them if they wanted to join the WDCU so they "could" vote. We got "less" than 10% wanting to move to the WDCU....
i c no reason y u should expect to be flamed...

it appears to be an honest post with seemingly genuine views.

but lemme get this straight.

you ed over 300 people via email...


and ONLY 10% accepted the offer?

that may be the BEST response to unsolicited JUNK MAIL in history!

and this is EXACTLY why the home office can't have my email address.

because WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF >300 people,

they handed over private info so the dc unit could advance their own agenda.

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now lets analyze what happens generally, to UNSOLICITED broadcast email...

-most of it doesn't get opened...
-much of it gets filtered by email software...
-very little of it leads to a RESPONSE from the recipient...
-and even less results in a sale!
and so on....

so a 5-10% success rate is PHE NOM IN AL!
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and wheel' is correct some of us don't wanna back into voting by using the same sort of tricks bobbleheads use.

and gt1963 is correct, the PAL category is basically like the affiliate member ding that the otc uses for folks with newer used trailers...
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while i WOULD NOT have seen, opened, responded or accepted the spam offer from wdcu...

IF the home office sent me a mailer saying... "FOR VOTING PURPOSES ONLY"

"you have been assigned to unit xxx (that has ONLINE VOTING) and you may exercise this voting right on all club issues..."

i would accept that offer.

and again,

the hilarious pres letter encouraging units to re-sign departing/former members

who no longer own an rv (of any brand) and no longer travel or camp...

because they can be valuable to the club, it an example of why the wb' is making itself IRRELEVANT to 'streamers or 'streaming...

cheers
2air'

and 65gt u may be right, the home office doesn't have the time or ability or inclination to help new members on this issue...

so given HOW MUCH of the wb' TOTAL BUDGET COSTS are consumed by the hq staff...

this is a great reason to CUT THE OFFICE STAFF AND BUDGET SIGNIFICANTLY
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Old 02-19-2008, 05:09 PM   #20
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Lockstep and close ranks...

Lockstep and close ranks and follow suit or allow members to have representation and craft their own constitution?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT
Actually I'm pretty clear on my thoughts.
I don't know how you can presume to make such an impactful decision to end an established option and facet of WBCCI membership without representing the will of the members that are affected.

You have a new idea on how best to solve the problem of failing membership and it's by disturbing one of the largest healthiest segments of the WBCCI membership. MALs are increasing yearly with a standing of 550 members for 2008. We have worked through the name not being the problem. We have worked through the brand identity not being the problem, now you propose that we work through the MAL standing as being the problem. But with what report or query of the 550 members that have chosen it for themselves? If it ain't broke, then don't fix it. Your vision is not an improvement but merely a change and not of the right kind, it is of the wild unresearched attempts kind that this club definitely does not need more of.

MALs are NOT a problem to be fixed, MALs HAVE a problem that should be fixed, and the bylaws should be changed to provide all members equal rights, 1M1V period. I am surprised that there is no support for a hand-up from the other members as many of their attempts have been supported by MALs in the past. Instead you intend to actually take advantage of their lack of representation and use it as a vote against them.
You guile us with duty to vote, but you say we don't count, you say we dont care, you say you may never see us within the unit but you want our numbers, our numbers being the only commodity of value to you. Could that be part of the current mindset that actually prevents MALs from wanting to join a unit? We haven't even gone cold in the field yet and already the mighty carrion flesh eaters are having a field day on our bones as these units cannot divide the spoils fast enough betwixt themselves.

Shame. Do you not learn from the past? Are you the very same that have found obstruction in the higher governance of our club, having your choices discounted or having your motions refused, to then turn and say, this is wrong! They should work TOGETHER to help the will of the membership be realized.

You can wave all the largest flags but until you embrace the fact that all members are entitled to a voice and to rule themselves, it remains a demonstration for mere display, and you turn your backs on and prove false to the very power you claim to support.
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Old 02-19-2008, 07:19 PM   #21
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Not the prettiest picture I have seen painted of the WBCCI by you. How's that working with your membership drive?

Gathering of like minded individuals upon justice and reason is always a winning proposition. I see this thread as generating fine thoughts which should be a precursor to any action worth pursuing. Not a snowballs chance in Hot Places? We'll see what the future brings, but with hope and not apathy.

Fighting losing battles may be fatal to political aspirations but it cannot be beat for morale.
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Old 02-19-2008, 08:14 PM   #22
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So -- where do you want YOUR newsletters to come from Carol?
You are funny. I might just have to run a newsletter competition.

I applaud any unit that introduces the personal touch to welcome, invite and mentor new members and monitor inactive or members that have left. That is as it should be in a unit. I know you have done well for your unit and they have appreciated the fun and vitality you have interjected.

What I am saying is that members should retain the choice to be a MAL if they desire and I could not list the possible reasons any better than Terry did in his post #11. But I do also support that local units may court MALs, I just want the option to remain for those that do purposely select it. There is room for success in both eventualities for a MAL. But force feeding units to MALs does not agree with my constitution.
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Old 02-19-2008, 08:46 PM   #23
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Seems to me I've noticed a trend here (& in other WBBCI rules based err, "discussions"...).

Folks like the Airstream because of the design, quality and aura - what it represents. Travel, freedom, gone with the wind, etc., etc...

The old school, that is those that "joined" as members of a club, usually stuck with the status quo. Had their local chapter that developed their local culture within the context of the larger organization. Did things together and planned events. But there were ways to do all that and we have rules, dangit!

Times change and people, because of the changing times, change their habits. We as a society became alot more mobile and in more ways than just with vacations and leisure time activities. Work, internet, information, all that plus, makes the world a smaller place. Ain't WiFi and satellite TV/radio great?

MAL's seem to be becomming a very large and vocal part of WBBCI. And if you're paying american $$ for membership, you generall expect to have a say.

What I find ironic is that the Airstream represents travel and adventure. Not sitting still and moving en masse. So why doesn't WBBCI recognize that and leadership figure a way to include vs. exclude dues paying members? Why does the basis have to be upon a local chapter who may or may not represent Airstream owners?

Kim and I didn't join initially because of several reasons, one being that we wanted to embrace something rather than having to conform. Heck, I didn't like doing that as a kid.

So why not embrace "Airstreamers without Borders", WBBCI? Seems leadership has to think of some new and innovative ways to address these changing time and to change with the times! There's alot of new people coming in and they all have great ideas, too.

OK... I'm done.
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Old 02-19-2008, 09:56 PM   #24
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MAL or 4CU?

Hi, Carol,

Just a little request for clarification. . .

Your signature line says, "WBCCI MAL #17241, 4CU"

Which is it? Are you a MAL or a member of 4CU? Can't be both.

(A while back I thought you were giving up on WBCCI altogether--guess you changed your mind.)

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Old 02-19-2008, 10:31 PM   #25
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Hi Nuvi, I did not reup right away on my dues automatically hoping that collectively with others it might have been a voice to headquarters in a priority I think they do respect in diminished revenue.

I will have to check. I thought I could be an associate of 4CU, Richard kindly offered to pay my dues if I reupped in WBCCI, can't let a deal like that pass, I'm very shrewd saving money. I also felt obligated to be current if I wanted to speak my mind and this issue concerned me very much, too much for a non-member. It's an Airstream club, where else would we really go? But SHHH don't tell, I believe that is part of what enables such ruthlessness at the top.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvite-F
Hi, Carol,

Just a little request for clarification. . .

Your signature line says, "WBCCI MAL #17241, 4CU"

Which is it? Are you a MAL or a member of 4CU? Can't be both.

(A while back I thought you were giving up on WBCCI altogether--guess you changed your mind.)

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Old 02-20-2008, 07:21 PM   #26
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Hi Nuvi, I did not reup right away on my dues automatically hoping that collectively with others it might have been a voice to headquarters in a priority I think they do respect in diminished revenue.

I will have to check. I thought I could be an associate of 4CU, Richard kindly offered to pay my dues if I reupped in WBCCI, can't let a deal like that pass, I'm very shrewd saving money.
Carol.

Believe me, I know where you're coming from. After the SOB MoHo issue was defeated last Int'l I decided I was going to ignore WBCCI politics and concentrate on doing positive things with and for the unit(s) we've joined and hang out with.

Then when I read on Save Wally that there may be an effort to bring back the SOB MoHo issue by stealth I was depressed for a week. It may very well be that the only vote that makes any difference with the IBT is the one where we do or don't write that check every year. Unfortunately, delaying it a few months won't make much difference, only the "gone for good" route.

I don't think "technically" you can be an associate member of a unit while being a MAL, but I could be wrong. Wonder if you could be an associate member of a unit without paying dues to International at all. . . .?

Best,
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:59 PM   #27
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Where is time best spent?

OK,

If one thinks about, were is a units membership person time "best" spent. Out of the 350 MALs we contacted, less than 10 percent decided to join the WDCU (about 22 people). Now remember, that was after I spent many hours on this and other forums trying to get the MAL's to join the WDCU just so they would have a vote (yes/no) on the MOHO. That does not take into account the email blast from "savewally" asking them to join.

Now, you take 22 MALs across the 147 Units (about) in the WBCCI that's would be one MAL's converting for every 7 Units. So, is a units time best spent "trying/hoping" to get a MAL to join there unit?? And thats to a person that has already shown they do not want to be part of a unit! Or, is the time better spent trying to get a new owner of an Airstream to join there unit?

Where would you spend your time?
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:06 PM   #28
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Paul - just a side note.

It would be interesting to see - the +/- on the Mals from year to year. Or the migration of MALs to units or that have not renewed.

Perhaps a MAL and a NEW owner is one in the same thing? Would be interesting to see that stat as well. How many are new owners of airstreams - be they brand new units or resales of any year make or model.

I guess the bigger question would be - how many jump in and how many jump out and what would their average staying power be?

Time is always better spent encouraging and assisting, with equal importance - all members and potential members a like.

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