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Old 03-13-2009, 07:02 AM   #71
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Jason,

I'm not a member of the WBCCI, but I would strongly encourage you to attend a couple of rallies, perhaps with a couple of different units, before forming your opinion on the WBCCI. Please do not be one of those people who forms an opinion based on second-hand information you read on these Forums. It seems fairly common on these Forums to hear people talk negatively about the club, who are not in the club, and never have been. It just doesn't make any sense, and I have no choice but to question the agenda of people who take that stance. Please note that there are others who HAVE been in the club and have negative views, and I do not intend to disparage them-- their input is quite valuable as it comes from experience.

If you go to a rally or two and still feel that it's too "Establishment" for you, then by all means, don't join, and please DO talk about the changes that would be required for you to want to join. That kind of informed opinion would be valuable to the units of the WBCCI, and to the rest of us.

I'm only saying this because you DO seem excited about it, if I thought you hated the idea of the WBCCI from the beginning, then I wouldn't even bother posting this to you.

The WBCCI is not for everyone-- indeed, it might or might not be for me, I don't know yet. But what I can say is that through these Airforums I've met many great people who love their club and their unit, so I will honor them by not forming any opinion without first camping with these people. As YOU say-- the whole point is camping, so why get involved in the politics before you've even camped with them?

Those are just my opinions, feel free to listen or ignore as you like.

-Marcus
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Old 03-13-2009, 07:03 AM   #72
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The downside of promoting from within the ranks is you get leadership comprised entirely of "company men." Years ago, I was hired as the administrator of a small city. For the first few weeks, I kept asking, "Why do you (fill-in-the-blank) this way"? The most frequent answer? "We've always done it this way." After a while, I called everyone together and explained that saying we've always done something a certain way was not a real answer. I wanted folks to think about everything we do, and why, and to constantly consider how we can do things better... or if we need to do them at all.

I've told that story to my staff often enough over the past decade that I know my replacement will never hear, "We've always done it this way."

Working one's way up the ranks is one thing. Conforming one's way up is another entirely. Longevity is often not a measure of excellence, but a measure of who's willing to sit the longest for a turn in the driver's seat.

As for Roberts Rules, Gene, I could not disagree more. I have found them a playground for procedural pedants. Saying you need Roberts Rules to run a meeting is like saying you need a 12 gauge shotgun to kill a gnat. Sure, it will work... but all too often you blow a hole in the side of the house. Trust me on this...

All one needs to run an effective meeting is a very simplified rules of order and a good chair.

Added: I respect your viewpoint, Marcus, but I suggest that one can talk about an organization without being a member. There is an entire sector of our economy dedicated to people who talk about companies where they are not nor ever have been employees. I would find it difficult to buy stocks without the benefit of their insights.

I don't think a doctor has to have a particular disease to help a patient. I don't think a counselor has to have been suidical to help someone who wants to kill himself. A good mechanic may be able to suggest how to fix your car without ever actually seeing the car. All he may need is a few critical bits of information to make at least an informed guess.

To suggest that one cannot have any valid insights about the WBCCI without being a member is bit misplaced, I think. I also think any individual experience is greatly biased by the person and the limits of the experience. An afternoon with the WDCU, for example, may be radically different than an afternoon with the IBT. Both persons can claim to "know" the WBCCI, but who is right? As far as I can tell, there are some wonderful people in the WBCCI... that is a conclusion I have reached without the benefit of membership. I also believe the organization has problems given the evidence like declining membership... that is another insight I feel is valid... though based on factual data rather than personally knowing any of the people who have decided not to join or rejoin the WBCCI.

I have not decided whether or not my wife and I will eventually join the WBCCI. I have learned enough, however, to wonder if the group is really a good fit for us. I don't give a fig about having red numbers on my Overlander. I really have no interest in who slept in what Byam trailer where. Away from the job, I don't care for rulebooks, or protocol, or calling someone "President," "First Lady" or "El Jefe Grandisimo." I also know that every unit is going to be different and there may be folks in the WBCCI where there are some shared interests... but in the mean time, I simply do not agree that one cannot have any legitimate thoughts about the club without being a member.
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Old 03-13-2009, 07:18 AM   #73
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One other thing-- I too am younger than my trailer, and proud of it! I wouldn't have it any other way.

Unless of course I won the Lottery, then I'd immediately go by a brand-new International CCD. But, I'd still keep and love my vintage unit just the same.

-Marcus
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Old 03-13-2009, 09:24 AM   #74
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I too am younger than my trailer. If I hit the lottery, I would not buy a new trailer, I would buy one of every model older than my first lady. The Bagwahn Rashe Neich had a Royles Royce for every day of the year. Now if I could have an Airstream for every day of the year....
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:11 AM   #75
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I think Hampstead and Atobols have made some very important points about change. From the numerous threads about this subject, it is not hard to understand the dynamics of the WBCCI and how it is evolving. Members of the organization have explained in depth how it works. What is happening within the WBCCI is not something that has not happened before to other organizations.

Frankly, Nuvite's explanation of how the system actually works, reminds me of the way the Soviet Union functioned as an organization. On paper, it was democratic, but in practice it was a self perpetuating organization where the guys (always guys) at the top picked people just like them to run things. The people at the bottom were told if they were good and did and thought what they were supposed to do and think, they could become a minor officials. If they were even more like the leaders, they might get promoted and get more perks. Do not speak out, or you will be crushed or suspended. The leaders run things the same way because it is for the "good of the organization", even if there are some messes along the way. An organization like that eventually falls apart because just like any brittle substance, cracks develop and there is no ability to change. Of course, there are differences between the Soviet Union (no one gets killed in the WBCCI) and the WBCCI, but as organizational structures there are some revealing similarities.

WBCCI's units operate with relative freedom and some pretty much ignore the national leadership, but they still pay "taxes" to an organization many strongly dislike. Such a disconnect between different levels of an organization symbolizes an unraveling. It appears so difficult to change anything at the top it seems likely units will either disband (five recently) or go their own way. Some units loudly proclaim—We are not like the national organization! Ignore them! We love to camp and make friends! This is nullification, outright revolt. The day when the national organization could change without chaos or severe disruption may be over. This is sad.

I think Hampstead and Atobols, as they seem to have said, would gladly join an Airstream organization if it were responsive from top to bottom and we knew our "taxes" were going to a leadership that was using them in a good way. I know I would. We wouldn't be posting so much on these threads if we didn't have some hope of that, though I am wary of speaking for them. If I have misinterpreted them, I'm sure I'll hear about it.

Gene
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:18 PM   #76
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big bad IBT gonna huff and puff and blow the club down .... now being compared to the Soviet Union? Are you serious? The Soviet Union? For real?
What club are you talking about? And why are you talking about it again? Yet another WBCCI thread you just cannot help yourself but to post on. Go look at your thread history and compare that to the WBCCI thread area.... every one. Looks like you seriously care about the WBCCI.

Why is the affairs of the WBCCI so important to some that are not part of it, I just do not get it.

All of us WBCCI members should really stop airing our dirty laundry out in public like this. Somethings are better discussed behind closed doors and among just ourselves.
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:37 PM   #77
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"All of us WBCCI members should really stop airing our dirty laundry out in public like this. Somethings are better discussed behind closed doors and among just ourselves."

Best suggestion ever.

Although I have been entertained!

Unfortunatley, I would love to join the club. Heck, I still have red numbers on top.

But, I just can't bring myself to support an organization that is more concerned with suicide than birth.
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:58 PM   #78
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Frank, insulting people with sarcasm never will change anyone's mind. Personalizing a discussion and worrying about my posts does not illuminate the issues.

Transparency is important to people, so a secretive organization will not do well. Your belief that only certain people, selected by you, are qualified to discuss something, will not attract new members. My comparison with the Soviet Union was meant to show how undemocratic organizations organized top down eventually fail. Not a perfect analogy, and I said so, but just to make a point. I might have added secretive organizations (like the Soviet Union) have a poor record of success in today's world.

Gene
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Old 03-13-2009, 05:32 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utee94 View Post
Jason,

I'm not a member of the WBCCI, but I would strongly encourage you to attend a couple of rallies, perhaps with a couple of different units, before forming your opinion on the WBCCI. Please do not be one of those people who forms an opinion based on second-hand information you read on these Forums. It seems fairly common on these Forums to hear people talk negatively about the club, who are not in the club, and never have been. It just doesn't make any sense, and I have no choice but to question the agenda of people who take that stance. Please note that there are others who HAVE been in the club and have negative views, and I do not intend to disparage them-- their input is quite valuable as it comes from experience.
I guess I've never been blunt about it in this thread, but we ARE going to join the WBCCI. That's not a question. The only question is which unit that I'm going to lay claim to. I'm really making an effort to find a local unit that fits me, but of the three candidates, one has been eliminated just on setup / agenda / times; the other was nice, but not people we really click with; the last we will be visiting tomorrow. If the third and last doesn't pan out, then it's WDCU for us.

My issue is that because I am choosing to join the madness and I'm one that really wants to bring about change that will keep the club strong for 50 years; that I will be stifled in my efforts to make those changes. I take issue with the fact that I'm going to have to sit back, shut up, and take it for min. 2 years before I any hope of being in a position of significant influence even at the unit level. I'm guessing that if I raise my voice anytime in those 2 years that I'm not likely to get promoted anyway.

Sadly, due to the set-in-stone ways of some existing units, the best way to turn them around is not to try to change; it is to close and restart (think of is filing for bankruptcy, maybe). The reason the WDCU, FCU, and NEU are doing so well is because they are offering what the people want. When the founders set out the make a new unit, they really asked and honestly answered what the people want, and made it happen. As a result, they are getting more and more membership; particularly thsoe people that don't fit in well with the existing establishment. So, maybe 5 years from now myself and a few others will be forming a similar unit in Ohio so that those of us new, progressive members don't have to join a unit that is based a day's drive from our home. I would hope that other such units will pop up throughout the world and, if need be, displace those that are unwilling to change with the times.
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:21 PM   #80
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come test the waters. A slot has opened at CBR.
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:31 PM   #81
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Better give Paula a chance at that slot if she is looking to attend. I know when I joined I wasn't on the e-mail list and the CBR was filled early, right after the e-mail reminders to register went out.

Paula you out there? Now yours chance to sign up!
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:03 PM   #82
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Oh Wow...

I would have signed up for sure for the CB this year as I missed it last year - it was my week of traveling home - but now I have to stay here till the 10th to have Taz's final eval on her surgery.

Paula is already signed up has been for a long time.
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Old 03-14-2009, 12:06 AM   #83
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Drat, that's a shame, to miss it again when you get so close to attending this year. Do you think another vet could do the follow-up?
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Old 03-14-2009, 12:11 AM   #84
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Drat, that's a shame, to miss it again when you get so close to attending this year. Do you think another vet could do the follow-up?
No unfortunately that is the whole reason I am having to stay an extra 3 weeks - because it is very difficult for another surgeon to follow-up another's work. She may have done certain things that only she will know - on Taz's progress and I really want to have a clean bill before I leave - if anything is wrong then they guarantee their work. As much as I would love to come back down it would be a very long trip. Taz is also having a longer re-coup time because of her age - I have to take it the extra weeks to give her poor ole body time to heal properly - just like us ole gals we take a little longer to re-coup from hard injuries...
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