Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-22-2011, 09:36 AM   #29
Rivet Master
 
Lily&Me's Avatar

 
2006 22' Interstate
Normal , Illinois
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,563
Thank you, thank you, Forrest. Carol, you are a word wizard.

Forrest, could you lay out, step by step, exactly what needs to transpire at this point in time for this Motion to move forward? This for the benefit of the interested and/or naive, for us all to read and follow.

It's time for President Beu and the IBT to step up to the plate, show there is indeed a moral center there somewhere and do the right thing. Your members are watching and waiting, and in fact judging your behavior.


Maggie
__________________

__________________
🏡 🚐 Cherish and appreciate those you love. This moment could be your last.🌹🐚❤️
Lily&Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2011, 09:49 AM   #30
Rivet Master
 
66Overlander's Avatar
 
1962 22' Safari
2016 30' Classic
Somewhere , in the USA
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,975
Images: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Hi Joe,

What the President seems to be saying is that it appears to him that the Denver Unit presented the motion so as to comply with Section 1, but that the Region Executive Board voted on the motion in a manner complying with Section 2 and a motion must follow one or the other, not both.

However, my last post uncovered the truth. The Region Board didn't vote on the motion. They voted to accept the certified votes from the Units as being valid and in sufficient number for the Region President to certify them to HQ.

Section 3, is admittedly poorly worded in that is states all motions must go to the C&BC. It does not contain the word "certified." So, Don Shafer and Dona Garner feel that means the motion should go to committee prior to being certified (voted on). There are all kinds of problems presented if it is done that way and requires reading Article XVI backwards (Section 3 first, then Section 1 or 2).

But you are right in wondering if the C&BC shouldn't be bypassed altogether. You are not the only one reading it that way. Even though I'd prefer it that way, I don't read it that way myself. Not just me, but others, including Past Region President and certified parliamentarian, Janie Lichtfuss, believe Section 3 requires a letter of recommendation AFTER the Region Units certify the motion.
Hi Forrest,
Finally went and read the Amendments part of the Constitution. If you read only section 1 bypassing HQ seems to be proper procedure. If you read section 3, however, it seems to me that you guys followed that one to a "tee", too, and amendments using section 1 or 2 need to go through section 3 for CBL Committee comment only (not blockage).

Besides the overall lack of clarity in these sections, one issue I see is that the time March 20 frame given in section 3 clearly only applies to section 2 type amendments that require ratification at the Delegates meeting. Section 1 amendments should be able to the Units at any time. Ideally, for section 1 amendments a review and comment time limit would be put on the CBL Committee (e.g. 60 days). Since that is not in there, I guess they can sit on any section 1 amendment until March 20, or up to 364 days in the worst case. Clearly, this section is not written as well as it could be. Hopefully the CBL Revision Committee will address this shortcoming.

After reading the Constitution, I tend to agree that the CBL Chair appears to be trying to defeat this without proper authority to do so. Disappointing.

I wonder what the Club would do if you tried to put this motion forward by Section 1 alone and a majority of Units in a majority of Regions approved it and certified so to HQ? I think that would be termed a "mandate".
__________________

__________________
Joe
Wally Byam Caravan Club International Historian
Vintage Airstream Club Historian
WBCCI/VAC #6768

(Looking for a vintage 1960's fiberglass front window guard)
66Overlander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2011, 09:50 AM   #31
Rivet Master
 
Gene's Avatar
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction , Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
Whatever the procedural technicalities, the action in refusing the amendment looks bad because of past efforts by the organization's ruling group to maintain their power. PR is not their strong point.

Gene
__________________
Gene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2011, 10:11 AM   #32
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
Whatever the procedural technicalities, the action in refusing the amendment looks bad because of past efforts by the organization's ruling group to maintain their power. PR is not their strong point.

Gene
The thing is at the IBT meetings there are plenty of times that motions are sent back to the writer and the writer has the opportunity to correct discrepencies with the benefit of the parlimentarian's, the IP's and committee chairmens' advice if the EC is behind the motion. They actually call a recess and sit down together with help and hash out an acceptable revision. But oftentimes if they are not behind it, we see last minute rulings though the documents have been forwarded well in advance and could have easily been corrected before the meeting. These kind of dismissals of motions that do not have the IBT backing are not uncommon, whereas time and effort to correct motions is liberally taken when it has the approval of the IBT prior to the vote and often prior and irregardless of any discussion. The meetings are held twice a year but "business" seems already done deal well before those meetings are held.

Our good leaders and mentors should be helping membership draft and pass the initiatives they are seeking to put forward instead of summarily rejecting their efforts and thereby ending all progress with a judicial punt of dismissal on a technicality or order of a study or an order of revision to be readdressed at another time and place. Business being "officially" conducted only twice a year insures change is anything but swift even without new items being shelved.
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2011, 10:15 AM   #33
Rivet Master
 
Lily&Me's Avatar

 
2006 22' Interstate
Normal , Illinois
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,563
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
Whatever the procedural technicalities, the action in refusing the amendment looks bad because of past efforts by the organization's ruling group to maintain their power. PR is not their strong point.

Gene

Exactly.

President Beu/the IBT could choose to allow this Motion to move forward, in recognition of the effort that has already been expended (minus timely corrections of perceived procedural errors) and after already acknowledging the flawed and confusing wording of these Sections.

It would be the right thing to do.

Maggie
__________________
🏡 🚐 Cherish and appreciate those you love. This moment could be your last.🌹🐚❤️
Lily&Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2011, 10:47 AM   #34
Rivet Master

 
Southwestern , Ohio
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug&maggie View Post
Forrest, could you lay out, step by step, exactly what needs to transpire at this point in time for this Motion to move forward?
No, Forrest can't lay out, step by step, exactly what needs to transpire, because whatever they do it will be wrong. That's how bureaucratic obstruction works.

Go read the IPs post above. In effect it says, "Gol-lee, nobody has ever done this before and we can't figure out what they are supposed to do, so I guess it can't be done! And since I have the last word, it can't! Now go away!"

Recall a couple years ago when Leo G was running for national office? First they decided that "for economic reasons" they wouldn't print candidate's position statements in the Blue Beret except for the ones nominated by the Nominating Committee. How's that for a level playing field? Then, when Leo tried to buy a page of advertising in the Blue Beret to promote his candidacy they refused him because it was "too divisive."

There's a message here: You can't win. You ain't ever gonna win. This is our club, not yours. Your job is to pay your dues, sit down, and shut up. (Excuse me--stand down.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug&maggie View Post
It's time for President Beu and the IBT to step up to the plate, show there is indeed a moral center there somewhere. . .
They just did. It's them. They are right, we are wrong. Any questions?
.
__________________
Nuvite-F is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2011, 11:25 AM   #35
Rivet Master
 
Lily&Me's Avatar

 
2006 22' Interstate
Normal , Illinois
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvite-F View Post
No, Forrest can't lay out, step by step, exactly what needs to transpire, because whatever they do it will be wrong. That's how bureaucratic obstruction works.

Go read the IPs post above. In effect it says, "Gol-lee, nobody has ever done this before and we can't figure out what they are supposed to do, so I guess it can't be done! And since I have the last word, it can't! Now go away!"

Recall a couple years ago when Leo G was running for national office? First they decided that "for economic reasons" they wouldn't print candidate's position statements in the Blue Beret except for the ones nominated by the Nominating Committee. How's that for a level playing field? Then, when Leo tried to buy a page of advertising in the Blue Beret to promote his candidacy they refused him because it was "too divisive."

There's a message here: You can't win. You ain't ever gonna win. This is our club, not yours. Your job is to pay your dues, sit down, and shut up. (Excuse me--stand down.)

They just did. It's them. They are right, we are wrong. Any questions?
.

I read it, smarty-pants.

It ain't over til it's over. "Over" being the mid-winter meeting coming up this next week. Correct?

They can still make this right and show they are interested in becoming an entity members can and will respect and support. They otherwise will be exposed. Period. These Forums are like the Energizer Rabbit.

Man up. Change your stance. Do the right thing.


Maggie
__________________
🏡 🚐 Cherish and appreciate those you love. This moment could be your last.🌹🐚❤️
Lily&Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2011, 11:41 AM   #36
Naysayer
 
Boondocker's Avatar

 
1968 24' Tradewind
Louisville , earth
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,635
Images: 7
Send a message via Yahoo to Boondocker
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug&maggie View Post
I read it, smarty-pants.

It ain't over til it's over. "Over" being the mid-winter meeting coming up this next week. Correct?

They can still make this right and show they are interested in becoming an entity members can and will respect and support. They otherwise will be exposed. Period. These Forums are like the Energizer Rabbit.

Man up. Change your stance. Do the right thing.


Maggie
Maggie,

I intentionally decided last fall to withhold my dues for the coming year with payment contingent on what happens at this meeting. Unfortunately, there are clear signals that the IBT has no intention of reforming any of its practices. They have shown no moves (despite LI Pets claims) of addressing the concerns that lead to the aborted lawsuit; they apparently intend to move forward with the motor home scheme despite repeated instruction from the club membership to the contrary; and now they plan on thwarting appropriate and legal attempts from the membership to reclaim some measure of control. All three of these have happened since I decided to wait on paying my dues. I had hoped for signs of progress so I would have an excuse to remain a member, to the contrary quite the opposite appears to be occurring. Maggie, as you say, the IBT COULD CHOOSE to step up and do the right thing, and it would certainly be welcomed. However, on the basis of what has transpired in a relatively short period of time, I have no confidence that they will choose to act honorably. It makes me nauseous, but not nearly so much as I would have had I sent in another check.
__________________
Rodney

Visit my photography page
and the
Favorite camp grounds project map
My Blog

(The artist formerly known as General Disarray)

Boondocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2011, 12:56 PM   #37
Rivet Master
 
Forrest's Avatar
 
1986 32' Excella
Aurora , Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 636
Images: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug&maggie View Post
Forrest, could you lay out, step by step, exactly what needs to transpire at this point in time for this Motion to move forward?
Maggie
It is always darkest before the dawn, right? I don't think we can lay blame on the IBT for this controversy. It seems to be due more to the bureaucracy and inherent structure of the organization to maintain the status quo. AND that is exactly what the DENCO Unit motion seeks to change.

The fact is that Region 11 President Dan Neumarkel has his own motion (#5?) on the agenda specifically to get the debate in front of the IBT. President Beu has promised him that his motion will not be rejected, or ruled out of order. Of course, we'll see. But even then, we've helped Dan prepare for that, and I'm pretty sure he's been studying RONR. He wrote saying he's going to see this through to the best of his ability. Afterall, he has a mandate from his constituents - friends, his own unit, etc. - and my feeling is that he doesn't want to let them down.

In addition, there are other members on the board sympathetic and even supportive of getting the motion out to all the other Units in the country.

So, it isn't over yet, and the IBT might surprize us.

To answer your question though, the IBT needs to order the C&BC to produce its letter of recommendation and send it to HQ, and they might have to also reverse President Beu's order to return the motion to DENCO Unit President Reed. If that can be done, then the motion simply goes out to all the other Units in the country for them to vote on and they'll have one year to do so.

What can you and other members of the WBCCI do? Contact your Region President (by email or telephone) and tell him/her to support Dan's motion.
__________________
Forrest
Out for coffee!
Forrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2011, 12:56 PM   #38
Rivet Master
 
Lily&Me's Avatar

 
2006 22' Interstate
Normal , Illinois
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,563
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug&maggie View Post
I read it, smarty-pants.

It ain't over til it's over. "Over" being the mid-winter meeting coming up this next week. Correct?

They can still make this right and show they are interested in becoming an entity members can and will respect and support. They otherwise will be exposed. Period. These Forums are like the Energizer Rabbit.

Man up. Change your stance. Do the right thing.


Maggie

I was referring in this last sentence to the IBT et al, not to Nuvite-F, with whom I was bein' a bit sarcastic but not meant at all in a hostile nor unfriendly way.


Maggie
__________________
🏡 🚐 Cherish and appreciate those you love. This moment could be your last.🌹🐚❤️
Lily&Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2011, 09:40 PM   #39
Rivet Master
 
1987 29' Sovereign
Sparta , Tennessee
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 507
Send a message via Yahoo to wingfoot321
Boondocker,

I agree with your thinking. I have been skipping the international but, have been paying the annual dues in order to do caravans. We are doing our last caravan this winter so I will not register and pay dues this fall.

I have only been a member since 2004 so turning loose is not such a "big deal" for us with the exception of our friends in the unit and those we have caravanned with over the years.

WBCCI reminds me of our federal government. Totally isolated from the real world as the organization crumbles around it.
__________________
wingfoot321 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2011, 09:53 PM   #40
Naysayer
 
Boondocker's Avatar

 
1968 24' Tradewind
Louisville , earth
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,635
Images: 7
Send a message via Yahoo to Boondocker
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingfoot321 View Post
WBCCI reminds me of our federal government.
Not me so much, votes have consequences in federal elections.
__________________
Rodney

Visit my photography page
and the
Favorite camp grounds project map
My Blog

(The artist formerly known as General Disarray)

Boondocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 11:39 AM   #41
Rivet Master
 
Forrest's Avatar
 
1986 32' Excella
Aurora , Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 636
Images: 21
Below is correspondence received from President Beu this date:

"Forest"

"Thank you for the clarification. I think you have explained one of the causes of misinsformation. I agree that the Region 11 Board did not have to vote on the proposed Constitutional amendment, as stated in the Oct. Region 11 minutes. I disagree that a vote was neccessary to ratify to votes of the Region 11 Units if Section 1 was intended. Only a certification by President Neumarkel was necessary. See Art XVI, Section 1, third sentence. 'The proposed amendment(s) shall also bear a certification by the President of the Region of which the originating Unit is a part, that the amendment has likewise been approved by a majority of the Units within that Region.' But as you know, a Board Meeting was held, and a vote was taken."

"Region 11 President Newmarkel submitted a letter, dated October 9, 2010 to Headquarters. The first sentence reads, "The motion to amend ARTICLE IX of the WBCCI Constitution was RATIFIED by a MAJORITY vote of the members present at the Annual REGION 11 BOARD MEETING, with a quorum present." Seems clear enough to me. I accepted the accuracy of this statement."

"Please review Art XVI, Section 2, fourth sentence. 'The proposed amendment(s) shall also bear a certification by the President of the Region of which the originating unit is a part, that the amendment has also been approved by a majority of the members of the Region Board of such region.' Unlike Section 1, Section 2 procedures do require Region Board action and are for proposed amendments intended to be considered by Unit Delegates at the June 30 Meeting."

"Subsequently, Region 11 President Neumarkel submitted Motion 5, replaced by Motion 5 (Revised) to be considered by the IBT during the Jan 24-28, 2011 Mid-Winter Meeting. As it stands, Motion 5 (Revised) is his to present as is, revise or withdraw, as he wishes."

"Regards"

"Norm Beu"
"Presidnt, WBCCI"
__________________
Forrest
Out for coffee!
Forrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 11:50 AM   #42
Rivet Master
 
Forrest's Avatar
 
1986 32' Excella
Aurora , Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 636
Images: 21
Here is my reply sent today:

"Dear President Beu,"

"As Iíve been saying, the maker of the motion (DENCO Unit) should not be held responsible for processing errors made after it has left the makerís control. Below is the letter I wrote to President Neumarkel, with Cc to all Region 11 Unit Presidents, on September 9, 2010, prior to the Region 11 Board Meeting. Pay particular attention to the sentences in bold."

"You returned the motion to the maker (the DENCO Unit) stating that it must be resubmitted despite all available evidence that the Units in Region 11 submitted letters of certification according to instructions from WBCCI HQ. The problem is not on our end, we have not withdrawn our motion, and we should not be required to resubmit it."

"Sincerely,"

"Forrest McClure"
"DENCO Unit Trustee, Past Unit President"

"From: Forrest"
"Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 1:41 PM"
"To: [Dan Neumarkel]"
[Email addresses removed]
"Subject: Re: Motion to amend WBCCI Constitution"

"Hello everyone,"

"The majority of units (5 out of 7) in Region 11 have indicated that they have voted and approved the motion to amend ARTICLE IX of the WBCCI Constitution."

"This is a "grassroots" initiative, intended for the membership of a unit to vote on and not the IBT or the Delegates at their Annual Meeting. Some have suggested that the IBT might be the "faster" path to get the motion through, but then it would be subject to all sort of opportunities by those who oppose it to modify, delay or table it. The motion is not intended, nor should it be voted on at the rally by the Region 11 Board (composed of unit presidents or their representative and the Region Executive Committee). One reason for this is the very real possibility that not every unit will be represented. This is likely going to be the case with the DENCO unit. Also, as has happened in the past, an insufficient number of units have attended, and without a quorum business cannot be conducted."

"Of course, there is nothing wrong with the motion being on the agenda for discussion. Never-the-less, that is not how the motion can be ratified following the procedure as outlined under Section 1 of Article XVI in the WBCCI Constitution."

"I wrote Cindy Reed, WBCCI Corporate Manager, concerning this and asked what process satisfies "certification" as it is used in Section 1."

"She wrote that, 'A written, signed letter from the Unit President indicating the motion has been voted on and approved by a majority of the unit members is required. Please email it to your Region President (Dan Neumarkel) and also send a hard copy via snail mail to him. The letter does not need to be notarized.'

So, please follow through now with a printed version, with your signature at the bottom, indicating your unit's vote. Failure to follow this procedure will make your unit's vote meaningless. Mail the letter to:"

"Region 11 President Dan Neumarkel"
[address removed]
"Thank you for your cooperation and best regards to all of you,"

"Forrest McClure"
"DENCO Trustee & Parliamentarian"
__________________

__________________
Forrest
Out for coffee!
Forrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
2011, president's remarks, wbcci


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.