WBCCI cyber unit?

[LuminumTraila]

Originally Posted by 65GT

A) What a virtual unit would be? (I envision campers all by themselves in the middle of the woods tending to their own fires with a laptop and a webcam off in the distance showing their grand view. Yet the laptop and webcam are so far away, they can't see anybody else's grand view).

This was already explained well by 2Air and Nvestysly. What you envision is just humor, right?

Originally Posted by 65GT

B) How the experience would be any different than belonging to any existing unit that currently uses the Internet to conduct all of their business and all unit communications? (newsletters, group mailing lists, forums, voting, correspondence).

How a virtual unit would be ANY different than belonging to any of the ~137 currently existing WBCCI units, and still being able to log on here (and elsewhere) and communicate with your long distance friends that are MALs or members of other units.

Does any unit now conduct all of their business and communications by internet and none at rallies or gatherings? Including unit officer elections and discussion of local unit issues that everyone would like to hear about? Installation of officers? Do these existing units discuss and plan future rallies for widespread locations outside their regions, or do they mainly hold rallies within a region, attended occasionally by members from further away who can make the trip or happen to be in the area? Are they designed and focused to reach out to a large International membership, or are they focused on a smaller group that lives within the region with friendly openness to members outside the region for the purpose of having a vote, etc.?

What if I like the idea of being in WBCCI, displaying the numbers, getting the directory and magazine, the VAC newsletter, and supporting the movement of the club into the 21st century, but I just don't get anything out of that whole rally scene?

I don't think anyone wants to rain on the parade of those who are enjoying their experience with their unit, just trying to open the club up to more of the people who don't fit into that structure.

The idea of a unit for MALs that would make them feel like full-fledged members, with the ability to help organize and administer the unit over the internet seems like a good idea to me and one that the WBCCI should support. Can someone explain to me how this idea threatens the WBCCI? I don't understand the negative response whenever this idea is brought up?

[norsea]

Originally Posted by 65GT

<BIG SNIPPY>

A virtual unit is nothing more than a private, paid membership forum. I still haven't seen anybody tackle the simple and basic questions from post#100 above. I think that silence speaks volumes...

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Uh, I don't mean to be antagonistic but I think there have been several posts that detail what is meant by "Vitrual Unit".

Right up front, I would like to state that we are new Airstream owners; since November of last year. As a result, for good or bad, we do not have a lot of preconceived notions about what an Airstream Club should "look like".

Every conversation we have had with people about the WBCCI, be it on line or face to face, leaves us with the same feeling/impression which is that the club is not meeting a tremendous number of peoples needs and that the politics around this issue is driving people away from the club.

While we would love to meet more Airstreamers, we have absolutely no desire to be involved with anything that is as politically charged as the WBCCI is these days.

What amazes me is that people continue to give money to the WBCCI in the form of dues when the leadership seems determined to steadfastly maintain the status quo. History is wonderful but at what price?

The idea of a club that meets in cyberspace to conduct all of its business is very attractive to us. We can participate wherever we may be. And it sure allows everyone to participate and geography is a non issue. Seems like a "no brainer" to me. This means that the face to face gatherings can be dominated by things other than club business.

It seems to me that the WBCCI has strangled itself with all of the different levels of bureaucracy that has. How many years does it take someone to reach a level of leadership at the highest level? It's no wonder to me that the people at the top do not want change after what they went through to get there.

All in all, I think the WBCCI as currently structured, is a dying entity; it is choking on its own bureaucracy. The only question in my mind is how long it will take and how many people will be alienated in the process?

Another thing I really find interesting is that so many WBCCI members are talking about all the WBCCI "issues" on this forum. When I go to WBCCI.org there is hardly anything in the forum there. Seems to me that all of these discussions should be held there.

In fact, when we first got our Airstream WBCCI.org is the first web site I visited. I was amazed; not about what I found there but what I did NOT find there. I was really surprised when I stumbled upon this forum. I would have thought what is going on here is what I would have found there. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes.

Of course this is just my opinion it is is not any better or worse than anyone eases.

Jim

[65GT]

Originally Posted by LuminumTraila

Does any unit now conduct all of their business and communications by internet and none at rallies or gatherings?

Not that I'm aware of. But at MetroNY we're getting close, at least on constitutional amendments (elections are next). A quick follow... We can get Delegates Instructions the beginning of April, our Spring Rally is mid-to-late April. Those that come to the rally can discuss the issues, and if there are those for and against, an individual can volunteer to write 500 words (whatever) pro or con, and that WILL go into our May Newsletter with a ballot (which is why Int. Officers should be a part of this process). The ballots can come back by email (as our newsletter goes out that way), snail mail, OR a member hand carrying that mail ballot to our June rally, and we've now given 100% of the unit the opportunity to vote. Whether they actually care to vote is up to them. So, other than missing the comraderie of our actual rally, a MetroNY member will be covered -- they GET their vote. That includes members that we've never even met (as it should be).

Originally Posted by LuminumTraila

Including unit officer elections and discussion of local unit issues that everyone would like to hear about? Installation of officers?

I can only speak for MetroNY. We have a GoogleGroups website. All you need is email ability and you can broadcast anything to the group that you like (and Associate Members are on that list). Unfortunately, we don't (and won't) print and US Mail all of these messages to those that do not have Internet access (or email accounts), so they actually lose out on a lot of this electronic communication.

Originally Posted by LuminumTraila

Do these existing units discuss and plan future rallies for widespread locations outside their regions, or do they mainly hold rallies within a region, attended occasionally by members from further away who can make the trip or happen to be in the area?

There's the part I don't get about a true virtual unit. How many rallies do you ever expect to make in a unit with no physical boundaries? How far away? Of course you could belong to any unit, anywhere, and still participate with units close to home, but this is the part I don't get. Is anybody really in this for the organizational opportunities instead of camping, rallies, caravaning? So, for MetroNY, we're actually retreating. We're pulling back our rallies and functions next year to make it financially easier on our core members (Long Island) and yet still try to appease those throughout NY/NJ/ & PA by allowing them to offer to host a rally in their neck of the woods, if they would like to do that. As far as MetroNY goes, it's up to the 1st VP to plan their presidencies entire year. Functions, events, rallies, meetings, and then recruit members to host, co-host, etc.. I've been working on this to some degree for months now. I have until Nov 1st to have it complete.

Originally Posted by LuminumTraila

Are they designed and focused to reach out to a large International membership, or are they focused on a smaller group that lives within the region with friendly openness to members outside the region for the purpose of having a vote, etc.?

This one depends on what you're after. I can only speak for MetroNY. We have members in AZ, FL, WA. Up until now, they're on the outside looking in with regard to elections. We've already made the changes that covers them for future constitutional amendments. If we can amend our bylaws to require ballots for elections (unit, region, international), then it won't matter where you live. You'll get the results of our discussions on the issues, you'll get your ballot, and you'll be able to vote. I still have concerns about making sure a Delegate is present year in and year out. I think that issue needs to be resolved immediately. Alternate Delegates should be any Regular Member that a unit selects, and instructs, in writing. A guest Delegate (non-unit member) may merely be a formality, as I expect that no one is going to allow a non-unit member Delegate, to make many judgment calls when amendments come up from the floor.

Originally Posted by LuminumTraila

What if I like the idea of being in WBCCI, displaying the numbers, getting the directory and magazine, the VAC newsletter, and supporting the movement of the club into the 21st century, but I just don't get anything out of that whole rally scene?

Then right now, you need to find a unit that can get you all the other things you want electronically. Due to personal reasons, WDCU had a really down year. Will they be back on top? 4CU is doing exactly the kind of camping they set out to do, but they have yet to be seated at a Delegates Meeting. I don't know which units really can afford 100% access via the Internet on issues and elections. 60+ units showed that they couldn't cast a single vote for a candidate, versus the slate. It looks to me like those in charge at most of those units decided (regardless of what those that couldn't make their meeting would have thought) decided majority took all or worse.

Originally Posted by LuminumTraila

The idea of a unit for MALs that would make them feel like full-fledged members, with the ability to help organize and administer the unit over the internet seems like a good idea to me and one that the WBCCI should support. Can someone explain to me how this idea threatens the WBCCI? I don't understand the negative response whenever this idea is brought up?

I don't see it as a threat -- I don't see any appeal to that unit. Are you going to FORCE MALs, who by definition, don't want to belong, into a MAL unit, or are you going to let MALs be MALs? Because if that's the case I think you're going to discover that most MALs won't join a virtual unit for the same reasons they won't join a regular unit. They just don't want to have anything to do with it. So how big will your virtual unit be? It might not be any bigger than 30 members. What will you plan, what will you schedule? Who will come? To where?

I still believe the best experience is one where you can get to rallies to have some fun. Finding a unit that is both laid back, and encourages children is probably the real trick there. But remember, you can be a member of any unit you choose, so if electronic communications is what you're after, go seek that unit out. It doesn't keep you from attending any other unit's rallies anywhere -- and there's a lot to be said about that one, all by itself...

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[65GT]

Originally Posted by norsea

...Every conversation we have had with people about the WBCCI, be it on line or face to face, leaves us with the same feeling/impression which is that the club is not meeting a tremendous number of peoples needs and that the politics around this issue is driving people away from the club. Jim

Jim, no different than watching the nightly news, when you look at WBCCI national (or here worldwide) news you're likely to hear the bad news. That's the most striking anyway. But I would guess (just as I've written somewhere recently) that far and away the majority of the members in this club are having a great time -- especially at their local units -- and at the end of the day, for most member's experiences, it's that local unit experience that counts first and foremost. That's more than 6500 member families.

You can categorize everything that's wrong with the club into many different compartments, but none of those items exist at my local unit. We have fun -- we do great things -- we go neat places -- and we enjoy each others company.

Personally, I've been frustrated with the top level management of this club for YEARS. They have yet been able to affect my local unit, but they've actively tried to change both the name, and our membership requirements to something other than what we all signed up for.

Incensed by those actions, my focus is now on them, and it will remain on them. I simply don't trust them to leave these issues alone, and based on these imbecilic actions, I don't trust them to do much anything else that is right for the membership of this club. Every time I listen to an IBT seminar or meeting I lose confidence in many that claim to be leaders. Yet, they haven't been able to pierce my unit's fun to date, so something is working.

So a lot of people might complain, that's okay, eventually it helps move the dime. I think what you should be more interested in, is where are the good folks local to you that would like to meet you, that are out having a good time, and would be thrilled to have you join them. Those units are out there in abundance -- they really are. It's just that most of them have little to no internet presence, so it really requires a phone call and a visit to go find them. If you've got a tow vehicle and an Airstream, give it a shot -- you might be surprised by how happy you'd be rallying with these folks. More than 650 rallies a year -- there must be a few near you...

...and as some might chime in -- if your first unit experience didn't work out for you (and they don't always work out), go try the next one right up the road. In the NY area we now seem to have 3-4 units where members routinely rally hop. I see that growing -- I see more of us hopping to each others rallies in a big way. Each unit has at least one great rally a year where there's always room for another rig or two. From my experience the local folks and the regional folks are all great. The club's problems all start two levels up. The association between all of us unit members, from multiple units in this area at least, is what works, and that's worth the price of admission, without a doubt...

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[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by norsea

Uh, I don't mean to be antagonistic but I think there have been several posts that detail what is meant by "Vitrual Unit".

...

Of course this is just my opinion it is is not any better or worse than anyone eases.

Jim

Jim,

I don't know where you are located, but if you are ever in So Cal, please let me know and I will invite you to an El Camino Real Unit and South Coast Unit rally.

Bill

[norsea]

Originally Posted by wkerfoot

Jim,

I don't know where you are located, but if you are ever in So Cal, please let me know and I will invite you to an El Camino Real Unit and South Coast Unit rally.

Bill

Hi Bill,

At the minute we are in Oregon, visiting my wife's parents. We've been traveling full time since 2000. Full time with the Airstream since last November.

We may be in the So Cal area next spring. Next month we will be headed east and will spend the winter in the south east/west. We woudl love to attend. To date, the only Airstream event we have attened was the Can Opener Rally in Florida last December; I believe that is NOT a WBCCI event, however. We wanted to attend a 4CU event last February but were unable to do so given other commitments. Perhaps next year.

I am sure you are well intended and I am sure that the vast majority of people who belong to the WBCCI are great people. The ones we have met to date certainly are.

Our concerns are NOT with the people in the "Units" of the WBCCI. Our concern is becoming part of an organization over which we have absolutely no input/control. The idea of contributing money to an organization that wants to operate in a manner that I don't approve and/or have input to about operations makes no sense to me. Frankly I cannot see many people joining such an organization. I suspect that I am NOT alone in this regard given the declining membership of the WBCCI.

Perhaps I have been misinformed, but it is my understanding that the vast majority of the money that is collected in dues by the units does not remain int the units; it is automatically transferred "higher up the food chain". Am I wrong?

Jim

[hookedonclassic]

Originally Posted by norsea

Another thing I really find interesting is that so many WBCCI members are talking about all the WBCCI "issues" on this forum. When I go to WBCCI.org there is hardly anything in the forum there. Seems to me that all of these discussions should be held there.

In fact, when we first got our Airstream WBCCI.org is the first web site I visited. I was amazed; not about what I found there but what I did NOT find there. I was really surprised when I stumbled upon this forum. I would have thought what is going on here is what I would have found there. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes.

Jim

Jim: I have had the same feeling about the lack of postings on WBCCI forum although it's improving. Is someone from the 2020 committee picking up on this thread?

[maxandgeorgia]

This forum is evidence that a "global/cyber" group can operate with actual rallies and face-to-face encounters. We require no set organization, yet we can create a rally whenever and however we wish simply by putting out the word. No one takes offense that a rally is planned across the country from where one lives; everyone knows that if you choose to drive the distance, you are welcome. If you are in the area, stop by. The campfire is always lit and the welcome mat is always out. A virtual unit, or such a unit by any other name..., should operate the same way. All the talk, business, planning, whatever, would be done like we are doing here. Rallies would fit interest and regions. So...why not? Is it possible this forum could form the nucleus of such a group, those members who are so inclined? ~G

[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by norsea

Hi Bill,

At the minute we are in Oregon, visiting my wife's parents. We've been traveling full time since 2000. Full time with the Airstream since last November.

We may be in the So Cal area next spring. Next month we will be headed east and will spend the winter in the south east/west. We woudl love to attend. To date, the only Airstream event we have attened was the Can Opener Rally in Florida last December; I believe that is NOT a WBCCI event, however. We wanted to attend a 4CU event last February but were unable to do so given other commitments. Perhaps next year.

I am sure you are well intended and I am sure that the vast majority of people who belong to the WBCCI are great people. The ones we have met to date certainly are.

Our concerns are NOT with the people in the "Units" of the WBCCI. Our concern is becoming part of an organization over which we have absolutely no input/control. The idea of contributing money to an organization that wants to operate in a manner that I don't approve and/or have input to about operations makes no sense to me. Frankly I cannot see many people joining such an organization. I suspect that I am NOT alone in this regard given the declining membership of the WBCCI.

Perhaps I have been misinformed, but it is my understanding that the vast majority of the money that is collected in dues by the units does not remain int the units; it is automatically transferred "higher up the food chain". Am I wrong?

Jim

Jim,

You are correct on the dues allocation. $55 goes to national and ECR dues are $22. I consider the national dues a small price to pay when I consider all of the friends which we have met over the past six years. We would have not met them if it were not for WBCCI. The Airstream world does not revolve around AirForums, only a very few of our fellow unit members belong to this forum. I spend more than $55 a month at the local coffee house.

Bill

[norsea]

Originally Posted by maxandgeorgia

This forum is evidence that a "global/cyber" group can operate with actual rallies and face-to-face encounters. We require no set organization, yet we can create a rally whenever and however we wish simply by putting out the word. No one takes offense that a rally is planned across the country from where one lives; everyone knows that if you choose to drive the distance, you are welcome. If you are in the area, stop by. The campfire is always lit and the welcome mat is always out. A virtual unit, or such a unit by any other name..., should operate the same way. All the talk, business, planning, whatever, would be done like we are doing here. Rallies would fit interest and regions. So...why not? Is it possible this forum could form the nucleus of such a group, those members who are so inclined? ~G

I am inclined to agree with your hypothesis about a "global/cyber" group. I think my wife and I are a bit of an anomaly in that we are not in any one geographic location for any great length of time. I think this is what appeals to us about being part of a group that is more oriented to a larger geographic region than the "normal" WBCCI units tend to be.

The history of the WBCCI is interesting and apealing as well. It is somewhat difficult for us to deal with the volume of WBCCI units that are out there. This is why we had such high hopes when we found the WBCCI web site. We were hoping that all of the information exchange about the trailers themselves as well as the social events would be available on the web site. It seems to me that that would be a piece part of membership that would be attractive and would definately be something that would be worth part of the price of admission into the club.

Given that all of this can be had here, for free, there is really not a lot of incentive for new Airstream owners like we are to get involved with the WBCCI. We have been really caught off guard by the WBCCI not utilizing the internet more than it does.

My inlaws are 75 and 82. The internet is a huge part of their lives; email especially. Neither of them worked in a job where the internet and/or computers were a huge influence; with the exception of word processing. Not all of their friends are on the internet but more than 95% are, as are the vast majority of the social groups they belong to and the people they do business with.

In reading about the WBCCI and the age issues being given as the reason the internet is not a bigger part of the WBCCI infastructure I find myself somewhat amazed. This does not give those of us who are new to Airsteam life a lot of warm fuzzy feelings. It seems to me a social club that has memebers spread over a geographic area as large as North America (to say nothing of the rest of the world) would be a prime candidate to take advatage of electronic communication. It comes as no surprise to me that the WBCCI is losing members, hence my comments earlier in this thread about the current structure of the club being part of the problem.

Any rate, it seems that there is a huge opportunity for some like minded folks to establish a new club that does not have all the "baggage" that the WBCCI brings with it. I cannot help but wonder what the folks at Airstream HQ think about all the political "stuff" that is going in the WBCCI; it certainly does not do anything to help them.

Jim

[safari57]

You can't change the WBCCI if you are not a member. I believe that MAL's deserve the right to vote and should be on equal footing to those who belong to a location based unit, and eventually we know that will happen. Not as quickly as any one would want, but it will happen.

Originally I was quite surprised by the issues around the IBT. A year and a bit later I realize that for a buck and some change every week I get to belong to an organization that has incredible history behind it. I happened to luck into a unit that is based half a continent away (and for that matter in another country than I am at the moment) but because they are very much focused on use of the internet to communicate I am as up to date if not more so than if I lived in the same area. Communication is quick, newsy but good, and questions are answered quickly and completely. The folks I've met on line here who are members of WBCCI constantly reinforce that it isn't about the IBT or who gets to vote, it is all about the opportunity to meet people with very similar interests to mine when it comes to camping and in what kind of trailer. But yes, there are many issues with how the WBCCI is currently being guided, but as long as that is not getting in the way of my camping I'll let it slide. It won't take long before the right people with more current ideas are in place to facilitate the changes needed.

I'm typically not one to sit back and wait for change to happen through attrition but in this case I suspect that this is what is going to have to happen before the club changes. It is going to take a lot more "hurt" to the club and membership before this happens, but I want to be part of the solution when the time comes. That is the fun part. But again, you can't help create change if you are not a member, you are instead a spectator. Join WBCCI, forgo a coffee once a week, and with enough voices raising the issues on the WBCCI forums (and also praising the fun stuff that is happening) we could possibly make this happen much sooner than I think.

You folks are right, it needs to change, but that is only part of the equation. WBCCI events are still a wonderful way to meet great people, learn about our trailers, and go to places we typically wouldn't even have thought about going. Bolstered by the AirForums the two are, in my mind, inseparable and this forum is far more a part of Airstreaming than the WBCCI Forums just because Andy and friends saw what was needed and being very proactive he created an outstanding global network of e-campers.

Over the past I've probably commented on things that having later learned more about WBCCI I have come to realize that I was a bit over zealous in my responses. I know I've owed folks (like 2air and many many others) an apology for some of my responses and they have been kind enough to let me off the hook more than once. That just shows that we all understand the frustration on both sides and we all are shooting for the same end result, just some of us are young enough that we can ride this out till a younger crowd runs the IBT. Oops, was that my inner voice coming out? But this very forum proves that an internet based unit would not only be a success but also quickly help WBCCI rebound in membership.

The important thing is to hash out, probably here so people who are currently non WBCCI members can put in their two cents worth, what the virtual unit would look like and how it would be managed and from that create a model to present to the IBT of the future.

Rob - one comment on 2nd Life. I'm very leary of it. I have several friends who audit software and employees use of work systems for personal internet access during working hours and they say that many folks border on what could be considered addiction. When faced with having to refocus their attention on the work they are being paid to do versus living in their virtual world for some it is a very hard choice to make. So I've stayed clear of it. Maybe I have the wrong information and I certainly do NOT want to create a debate about the pros and cons of 2nd life or any equivalents - I'm just noting my own concerns.

Barry