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Old 04-25-2006, 07:09 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by InsideOut
Why would you want to be a part of a club that you state that you don't have anything in common with? Why not just keep on doing what you do with the forum & it's rallies?
Unfortunately it's a darn good question, and one I wrestle with every year when it comes time to pay the dues again. Right now I'm really not sure.

I guess because I think there can be room for both types in the WBCCI, and that the still-working youngsters can find a place in the club and eventually they'll grow into the free-wheeling retired folks who can enjoy the more intensive rallys and caravans the club has to offer.
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:28 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
Unfortunately it's a darn good question, and one I wrestle with every year when it comes time to pay the dues again. Right now I'm really not sure.

I guess because I think there can be room for both types in the WBCCI, and that the still-working youngsters can find a place in the club and eventually they'll grow into the free-wheeling retired folks who can enjoy the more intensive rallys and caravans the club has to offer.
As you know, I'm in the same boat...I'm under 50, still work, can't go on caravans or every rally our Unit has (except last year when I worked part-time to do so as President). But because of several other members just like me in the Denver Unit, we are changing the demographic of the Unit from within.

When I joined 5 years ago, there was only one or two other members that I would consider "my peers"...the Unit was about 60-70 members. But because we enjoyed getting together, we hung in there and encouraged others we met to give it a try...now our Unit has grown to about 100 members about 1/3 of which are of a similar demographic as myself. The DenCO Unit has a website, we email, we get together outside the club, many of us are on this forum and we have become great friends. That is so much better than only seeing each other once or twice a year or so at a forum rally, something we can only do because of our proximity.

Sure, I've met some terrific WBCCI & Forum members that aren't in my area and I do enjoy hooking up with them when we can, but the true fellowship of like-minded Airstreamers is right here in my own backyard! I have to believe it's only because we made it happen, not because the Denver area is any different than anywhere else. You could make it happen too ~ yes it does take some effort, but no more than would go into starting a Cyber Unit.

Shari
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:30 PM   #45
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so many concepts and issues mean this discussion will be a challenge...

-some are expressing there dislike with wbcci pomp/procedure regardless of unit location....

-others are expressing interests that are clearly "intraclub" in nature....there already is a computing club, singles club, vintage club and so on....these can be expanded or new intraclubs formed. gotta be a wb member first though.

-for example a 'working with children' intra club might be good for some members and wbcci as a whole.

-some are suggesting the airforums IS there airstream club...

-then there are those who harmlessly have misdirected this to a 'name vote' issue yet again......


so many thought streams in one thread are difficult and distract from defining, organizing and creating a wbcci virtual unit. i prefer virtual to cyber....google virtual to get a feel for the way this word better defines the goal. virtual library, virtual pharmacy, virtual anatomy and virtual astronomy and virtual traveler are examples of effective substitues for other issues that have become problematic....while cyber basically means via computer. a virtual unit concept has much greater potential than just the computer or being 'online'....


i very closely inspected every active unit in my home geographic region, and some in locations where i visit or camp regularly..... i have attended some of their functions also. i chose to be a mal because NONE of the units met my needs or demographics or interests......none of my needs. during my 25+ years of airstream ownership i've been in and out of the wbcci. denied membership for having a moho, visited local unit functions in 12-13 states and 4 regions. attended local and regional rallies and caravans....basically i've visited every type of wbcci function except an overseas/international caravan. i've sampled wb stuff while young and employed full time, while working on the road self employed, fully retired and every combo thereof...occasionally i've met people i'd like further assoication with....but usually very few in any specific unit. occasionally i've found units i'd really like to be part of......thousands of miles away.....

i joined THIS TIME as a mal to have access to the air/s parks and occasional rally, the full national association of airstreamers..... and so on.

sierra breeze.....with all due respect, you have not clue one what or why someone opts for m.a.l. status. while m.a.l. status may not be understood or welcomed my many wb'ers...it has an untapped potental and resource....namely the people who willingly PAY into this category.....that may be willing to help with an expanded 'unit' concept....

nor do you understand what does or does not appeal regarding local units, except perhaps for your own. nor do you seem to understand how a virtual unit might function or the great potential for a virtual wally unit. it is not a distraction from the real issues.....it is a real issue. a virtual unit might not be your interest and perhaps your local unit has other real issues..... or national has expressed common real unit issues, that need your problem solving skills.

i have spent some time with the old guard, with the established units and functions i was around when the first intraclub was formed....

the issue isn't making something new just to avoid the status quo.......
the problem is establishing CRITICAL MASS......
1 or 2 or 3 members joining an existing unit cannot reach CM.....
but, if 10 or 20 or 100 like mined folks see the potential in a wbcci virtual unit....
that critical mass issue is overcome.......quickly.

so...........
for one.....imo.......yadda, yadda.....

i'd like to see the posts in this thread
focus on how/what/why/where a virtual unit might develop.....
not every other wb issue real or not....

so for everyone else......

1. if your urgent need is to cast a vote on the name change.....join a unit and vote. wdcu looks cheap and quick.

2. if you don't like most of what wbcci does or represents, or if you don't like 'club' issues like officers, meeting, bylaws, and other such
organizations....don't join any unit or wbcci for that matter.

3. if you enjoy computers and want to link with other wbcci folks who are into 'cyber' stuff......join the intra club on computing. heck even mal could form another intraclub..say the 'mal-contents'......like the full timers or freewheelers...

4. if the air/forums satisfies all your club needs....just keep to the air forum stuff.....it's a great global club/community.......

5. if your focus is similar to the vintage intra club.....join wbcci and a vintage oriented unit.

6. if you want to discuss the name change issue.....take it anywhere....please.

7. however if you'd like to be part of a wbcci unit........and no geographically close unit fits the bill......think more about helping to create a wbcci virtual geographic unit. my though is this would start as a global unit. if need suggested smaller boundaries......this could come later....but start with a global perspective. figure out what would be unique in a constitution, how meetings would function and how members would participate, for example in votes or national wb activities....and what functions could happen online, and what activities might appeal for 'first person' functions
basically what is needed to fully embrace the "virtual unit philosopy"


perhaps we need another thread....that only includes posts related directly to creating a wbcci virtual geographic unit.

lets see what develops in this thread first.....and now that i've reread janets first post......she is really suggesting a "forums unit" which is also a great idea but not exactly the same as a virtual unit either....

cheers
2air'
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:41 PM   #46
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First I think what would Wally do and then I think about all the books I have read on him and Airstream and this is my conclusion: Wally and Airstream have always been ahead of time and as I think about it I believe if Wally was still alive it would have been already in place a cyber unit
2air, I see you getting into the ad hominem - that is too bad. Not a good direction to go making presumptions about others and their knowledge or motivation.

As far as Wally, he knew well enough the difference between a tool and a rally and an organization. He knew well enough about fads. He knew that identity and focus was critical for his company and his product. The organization was formed to get the rigs out and get people together in that pursuit. That is why an intra-club, a special interest group within the WBCCI, is different from a Unit.

As far as wailing about the price of gas and all these other things, oh my. We have yet to hit the $3.18 / gal equ cost in 1981 - and look at the WBCCI membership numbers for then!

What we have here is a lot of direct evidence of why WBCCI membership is suffering. Some in stories and anecdotes and some by direct example. There is a lot to learn and to think about that could be used for constructive change. And it will start with each and every one of us individually.
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:54 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsideOut
.....~ what is the draw to starting a cyber-unit of the WBCCI? Why would you want to be a part of a club that you state that you don't have anything in common with? Why not just keep on doing what you do with the forum & it's rallies?

I am not against starting new Units, cyber or otherwise...I'm just curious ~

Shari
Well... since you asked...

The wbcci offers interesting infrastructure. The shelter of a non profit org structure is useful. Rallies don't just happen. You have to reserve and usually pay in advance for spaces - the wbcci (unit) can have a small war chest of funds - from dues, to cover those costs. They can also offer liability insurance that you must have when camping in some places - like city parks or other non-traditional venues. Currently when some one organizes a forums rally, they have to find ways to cover that stuff up front - or bear the financial risk. Last time I organized a forums rally, I floated more than $500.00 in reservations with the Oregon State parks for 2 months on my plastic.

When you start to have funds to manage - you need some member governed structure. We care how our money gets spent. Hence the need for a unit Board of Directors. It's important to remember that while this forum is useful for planning stuff - it is privately owned.

I have read several posts asking why a cyber group is needed. Why not just go camping? Our current forum (cyber) group does that already. There are many forums rallies happening in ad hoc ways. Forums rallies are successful in the absence of a local unit. A wbcci cyber unit could have similarly successful rallies - planned and executed in the same fashion.

I'm not proposing hijacking the current wbcci unit model - just adding a new unit with a more flexible structure - it would complement local, region based units.

Remember when you are considering this - that many of us do not live near a unit we can't participate in traditional ways. Others of us choose not to for various reasons. There should be room for everyone and a unit to meet most needs. It is clear that it's time for a course correction. I am proposing one that would be fairly painless and i suspect that many folks would choose to join more than one unit.
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:54 PM   #48
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Well 2air looks like we are getting a bashing. I'm going and getting the kleenex now.



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Old 04-25-2006, 08:15 PM   #49
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bryan.....

my notion is to creatively brainstorm the notion of a vitual unit and only do that as a first stage in the creative process......

it is nothing pro/se/ad hominem hubris habeous duboius........

everyone else......

as janet points out there are many important parts of the infrastructure that wb provides......
and that do not need be re-invented.....
to forum another unit with a more global/virtual geographic loci....
a world wide wally unit.....the wwwu of the wbcci......

the forums are great......as are the rallies and stickers and online exchanges.....

currently 30+ are signed up for the midwest rally in june.....this number could reach 40+......and perhaps a 100+ in a year or 2.

once these functions get past 25-30-35 trailers/folks.....issues may develop....like smooth parking when several folks arrive at the same time or simple organization of happy hour or community meals or games and so on.....eventually several strong minded but un elected leaders disagree on logistics or how to handle issues.....

for example i noticed the recent rally in the pnwest changed locations....just a few days before the start......this could have been problematic if several had already set up camp.....and so on.

and insurance and money and reservations and sanitation and space and so on.....

small and simple changes when numbers grow and compexity joins...

so clubs form.....with bylaws and process and dues and officers and so on....

the point isn't too debate yet again the wb weak spots.....but the great potential for a wbcci virtual unit.....

cheers
2air'
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Old 04-25-2006, 09:45 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janet
Well... since you asked...

The wbcci offers interesting infrastructure. The shelter of a non profit org structure is useful. ...
Janet -- very well put (the reasons for forming a cyber-unit with WBCCI). I would add that outside of attending rallies with other Airstream folk the club of Wally B. also offers the directory of other Airstreamers, access to courtesy parking, and the ability to register for rallies and caravans outside our regions. Also, for some of us membership in the VAC is an important part of being a WBCCI member.

So put me down as being interested in a cyber-unit. Are there ten of us yet?

-Jamie
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Old 04-25-2006, 10:56 PM   #51
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2air - ad hominem is when you engage in assertions such as "you have no clue" - such tactics totally destroy any brainstorming (see book by Charles Clark for example).

It is what you actually say - actual objectively observable behaviors - that convey message. Trying to devine intent and motivation is very difficult under any circumstances and even more so when what is said is not in line with what one says is one's goals.

What strikes me is that "cyber unit" is so nineties, so last century. ;-)

But the real concern is the failure to learn from what has been. That is a first necessary step for any successful organization so as to not repeat past errors. In this case, proponents are sidestepping and rationalizing issues that need to be confronted with in a rigorous manner.

Nearly all of the arguments regarding this 'cyber unit' could equally have applied to an amateur radio unit forty years ago. There were also some lessons learned from that case that are not being considered here from what I see in this thread.

Not only that but some of the elitism, bigotry, and intolerance that has plagued WBCCI in recent years is on both sides of the discussion here. That is intriguing from an OD POV.

What does appear to be the case is that some folks are heavily invested in their views - to the point that a rational analysis of issues is extremely difficult. That also does not bode well for the long term.
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Old 04-25-2006, 11:06 PM   #52
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You want a rational discussion, but you make unfinished points in every part of your letter.

Quote:
Nearly all of the arguments regarding this 'cyber unit' could equally have applied to an amateur radio unit forty years ago. There were also some lessons learned from that case that are not being considered here from what I see in this thread.
What lessons? I know nothing about the amateur radio unit or it's 40 year history. That would be because whatever you are referring to happened long before I was born.

Quote:
Not only that but some of the elitism, bigotry, and intolerance that has plagued WBCCI in recent years is on both sides of the discussion here. That is intriguing from an OD POV.
I'm not sure what an OD POV is, but how do you get elitism, bigotry, or intolerance out of ANY of the posts in this thread?

Quote:
What does appear to be the case is that some folks are heavily invested in their views - to the point that a rational analysis of issues is extremely difficult. That also does not bode well for the long term.
Perhaps if you'll state exactly what the issues are that you are concerned about instead of just alluding to them we could have a rational analysis of them.
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Old 04-25-2006, 11:11 PM   #53
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Stephanie, thanks. illustrates the difficulties I think. There is a lot that could be discussed.
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Old 04-25-2006, 11:22 PM   #54
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I guess there is.
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Old 04-26-2006, 09:13 AM   #55
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Doug,

I'm not a big follower of the rules but I'm under the impression that no unit can cast more votes than they had in their membership either the previous year, or at the conclusion of the new years' dues? Something along those lines. So, if WDCU is growing, I'm not sure you could cast another 20 votes in this round.

Yeah, it's probably just something else that's broken with the club that needs to be fixed, but you know -- they dumped all their energy into this name change thing, so like, there really wasn't any room to actually FIX anything with in club this round...

Your thoughts?

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I just checked with WBCCI and members at large can join a unit up to June 1st and be counted on this years vote. So if you want to be part of the vote check us out here http://www.servintfree.net/wbcci-dc/ and join soon. We also do all business over the internet and save the rallies for having fun (kids included)
We also have a yahoo groups here http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/WBCCI_WDCU/messages For more interaction with members
It's still the best deal for joining WBCCI at only $1 instead of MAL fee of $15
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:46 PM   #56
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Quote:
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I just checked with WBCCI and members at large can join a unit up to June 1st and be counted on this years vote.
The other thing we need to clarify is that this statement might not be true for all units. Our unit votes this week at the Region 8 rally and those who join there after will get no vote regarding items on the International agenda.

Jack
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