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Old 09-01-2010, 10:13 AM   #57
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this was posted in the Lawsuit thread

Since I rather not engage in that thread.......

Quote:
It's over, just chill till the mid winters, if this isn't adopted which I doubt, there will be a mass drop in membership.

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Originally Posted by Boondocker View Post
Exactly what is being adopted? As far as I know there is no proposal on the table. Or is this like health care, too important to let the general public know about until its passed? Maybe this can just be "deemed" as passed as well....
If there is an actual proposal being considered it needs to be out in the sunlight not hidden in a back-room, no matter how pure the back-room crowds motives may be.
Ok let's discuss the process, the committee was just finalized with the 5th member last week.
We all talked and introduced ourselves and discussed each of our goals on the committee, its fair to say we all agree to sweeping changes for the survival of this club.
With the Holiday and hurricane, this week was tough to meet.

So next week will be the first group meeting, I suggested we use GTM, Go To Meeting, which most have seen on TV or used.

We can for instance pop a doc on a screen and it allows us to conference call at the same time to discuss.

In answer the question what has been adopted? first it needs to be drafted

Question too important to let the general public know about until its passed

the answer is NO, The Committee will communicate with WBCCI Members via the WBCCI.ORG forums, Airforums, the Blue Beret and direct e-mails.

As you can see there is an obvious flaw, Wbcci forums are run by the Gestapo, It is being addressed, but until access is resolved or the management is changed, it's not happening there.

The best alternative is Airforums, (I thank them for their cooperation.)

A special Gmail account for members and interested parties will be setup shortly.

So please post legitimate questions here which I'll try to answer but if it's not civil, I may decline to reply.

If I don't know the answer I'll try and get it, one of the platforms I presented myself to the committee was to try and bridge the gap from the dissenters or folks tied with the status quo.

However the actual deliberations of the committee can not be discussed, see RONR. for the reason

The committee plans to present its changes before the Midwinters the later part of Jan.





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Old 09-02-2010, 07:28 PM   #58
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Some ideas

  • Completely eliminate present constitution
  • Dissolve the IBT and replace with a council of presidents(COP) (unit presidents).
  • All business currently conducted by the IBT to be handled by the COP via internet based meetings.
  • COP to designate a chairperson to conduct business meetings. This chair to have no authority beyond this single role.
  • Eliminate grievance system
  • Eliminate paper version of newsletter
  • Require all rallies to be self-supporting
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Old 09-02-2010, 07:45 PM   #59
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  • Completely eliminate present constitution ok, it needs an update
  • Eliminate grievance system agree a good idea
  • Eliminate paper version of newsletter Yes all communications need to move into the 21st century using the most advanced tech available.
  • Require all rallies to be self-supporting
Please elaborate on the rallies please.

The suggestions below need more explanation.

  • Dissolve the IBT and replace with a council of presidents(COP) (unit presidents).
  • All business currently conducted by the IBT to be handled by the COP via internet based meetings.
  • COP to designate a chairperson to conduct business meetings. This chair to have no authority beyond this single role.
Thanks for your input.


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Old 09-02-2010, 08:58 PM   #60
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Recommendation

Frankly, based on the number of members of my unit who have either already left the WBCCI or plan not to renew this year, the disciplinary actions against Bob Thompson, and now Leo G, are the most divisive things the International Executive Committee have done in recent memory, exceeding even the demoralizing effect of the MoHo issue and the proposed name change.

This being the case, the essential outcome of the committee’s proposed reorganization must be a commitment to freedom of speech and the elimination of political abuse of the grievance process, including, retroactively, application to the reinstatement of Leo G.

Comes now our present International President who is quoted elsewhere as saying,

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
My personal interest is to make the Blue Book more user friendly, to reduce the bulk, to review Standing Committee Job Descriptions, and to identify impediments to "fun, fellowship and adventure" - all the while retaining the essential character and the traditions of the WBCCI, including the Code of Ethics.
To me, the words, “retaining the essential character and traditions of the WBCCI, including the Code of Ethics” mean, “We reserve the right to toss anybody who doesn’t agree with us out of the club”.

Which leads me to wonder if “the essential traditions of the WBCCI” include the captain going down with the ship.
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:06 PM   #61
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I have been on the road for 3 months, traveling to Alaska and back. I have

met a great number of WBCCI members in my travels, including

PIPs, region, local unit officers and members. The former PIPs know that

change is coming and know they will have to be onboard. Region and Unit

officers are aware that quick changes are needed to save the club. One

region officer said that most folks under 70 are looking for change. People

don't like the grievance process and its monetary cost to the club. The club

most move into the 21 century and that means revising the constitution and

by-laws as quickly as possible. The changes in the opening ceremony at

Gillette was a good start but more needs to be done. This new committee will

be used to provide the IP with the necessary recommendations to implement

change. If change does not occur then the lawsuit can proceed.
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:54 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvite-F View Post
Frankly, based on the number of members of my unit who have either already left the WBCCI or plan not to renew this year, the disciplinary actions against Bob Thompson, and now Leo G, are the most divisive things the International Executive Committee have done in recent memory.....
I personally know Bob & Harriet T. that entire issue was ugly.

Quote:
This being the case, the essential outcome of the committee’s proposed reorganization must be a commitment to freedom of speech and the elimination of political abuse of the grievance process, including, retroactively, application to the reinstatement of Leo G.


For clarity “freedom of speech” is the right, guaranteed by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, to communicate ideas and opinions without government intervention. I believe you may be referring to speaking freely (or posting) without externally imposed restraints, even this forum which is liberal does step in at times. If not this would be Air Anarchy, or should we protect anyone’s offensive speech or only the right to freedom of opinion and expression.


The issue may be should any club at a committee level be involved with enforcing/interpreting a members written or spoken words.

The problem in the above party’s cases is not what they said in the grievances filed, but the grievance committees’ broad interpretation of the wording “disharmony”.

The club needs to have a way to oust really bad folks, I don't think you want your family sitting at the camp fire with a sex offender etc.

There is a grievance section in RONR which should be sufficient. This will be reviewed.

I realize this will not make many happy campers, retroactive reinstatement will not happen, it’s not in the bylaws or RONR anyplace.
It wasn’t Leo,s message, he’s a plethora of info and stats, as much as it was and still is, his visceral delivery with colorful name calling.

The club does read these forums.

Quote:
Comes now our present International President who is quoted elsewhere as saying, “My personal interest is to make the Blue Book more user friendly, to reduce the bulk, to review Standing Committee Job Descriptions, and to identify impediments to "fun, fellowship and adventure" - all the while retaining the essential character and the traditions of the WBCCI, including the Code of Ethics.”
.
To me, the words, “retaining the essential character and traditions of the WBCCI, including the Code of Ethics” mean, “We reserve the right to toss anybody who doesn’t agree with us out of the club”.


The COE doesn't throw anyone out it is its reference by the grievance articles.

Well I can see your point, but that’s subjective as to what that means.

However, speaking with Norm Beu he very much wants changes to happen as does his successors.
As you saw him on the cover of the BB sans jacket and tie is the way he talked straight and to the point
He wants this committee to succeed and change the course of this club to be moving in the right direction with a balanced budget.

Everyone on the committee has the same goals, none are paid and in fact we will be out of pocket for our expenses and several hundred hours of our combined time. We’ve been reading thru the RONR (Roberts Rules), a quick read only 600 pages.

The committee members are doing this to revise the Constitution and bylaws, not just crossing the T’s and dotting the I’s.

Don’t have time now, bit busy (preparing for hurricane Earl) I will explain briefly what that means since no one has yet figure it out in post # 61


Tks for your recommendations






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Old 09-03-2010, 10:22 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
  • Completely eliminate present constitution ok, it needs an update! (1)
  • Eliminate grievance system agree a good idea
  • Eliminate paper version of newsletter Yes all communications need to move into the 21st century using the most advanced tech available.
  • Require all rallies to be self-supporting
Please elaborate on the rallies please.

The suggestions below need more explanation. (2)

  • Dissolve the IBT and replace with a council of presidents(COP) (unit presidents).
  • All business currently conducted by the IBT to be handled by the COP via internet based meetings.
  • COP to designate a chairperson to conduct business meetings. This chair to have no authority beyond this single role.
Thanks for your input.


.
(1) Nope, it needs a complete rewrite with only the bare minimum of structure to support operations (i.e. rallies and caravans).

(2) I should think it obvious, but here it is: doing this would strip the club of the bloated and completely unnecessary superstructure/ruling class. It would also make the club more responsive to the general membership. All power to make decisions not voted on by the general membership would be voted on by officers no higher than the unit level.
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:45 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
  • Eliminate paper version of newsletter
Actually, I agree with this one only half-way. We do indeed have members who are not into the internet. That said, I think even those people might realize that a new age of communication demands new means. To that end, I'd suggest that all publications coming from Jackson Center be made available to members electronically for free; those who require paper copy would be required to pay an extra fee for them. (At least one unit already does this.)


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Old 09-03-2010, 12:53 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Please elaborate on the rallies please.
What needs elaboration?
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Old 09-03-2010, 01:35 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
For clarity “freedom of speech” is the right, guaranteed by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, to communicate ideas and opinions without government intervention.
For clarity, "freedom of speech" is a long and deeply held tradition of western civilization—see for example, Voltaire, who held forth long before the United States came into existence. The First Amendment is just one embodiment of this tradition, a very important one, to be sure.

The point is that punishing a member of the WBCCI for freely expressing his opinion—and by a secret tribunal, at that!—is deeply repugnant to many American citizens, who happen to be members of the WBCCI.

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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
The club needs to have a way to oust really bad folks, I don't think you want your family sitting at the camp fire with a sex offender etc.
Another red herring. Of course there needs to be a mechanism for getting rid of really bad actors. But the mechanism should be proof against political abuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I realize this will not make many happy campers, retroactive reinstatement will not happen, it’s not in the bylaws or RONR anyplace.
First, Section 2-H of the Bylaws gives the Executive Committee the power to “affirm, overrule or modify” the recommendation of the Ethics and Grievance committee. Go read that section and see if you see any time limit.

The point is that the Executive Committee is the final arbiter of WBCCI disciplinary actions and can essentially do whatever they want. Also note that overriding of judicial decisions by executive branches is prevalent in common law; governors of states and the President of the United States can, and commonly do, pardon convicted felons.

But second, if in the collective wisdom of your panel of august parliamentarians, you conclude the Bylaws don’t give the Executive Committee that power, you can recommend the Bylaws be changed to give it to them. That sort of thing is the purpose of your committee, is it not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I realize this will not make many happy campers, retroactive reinstatement will not happen.
Que sera, sera, but in the context of WBCCI, “unhappy campers” translates into “unhappy former members".

My reading of the tea leaves leads me to believe that the expulsion of Leo G may well be the iceburg to the WBCCI’s Titanic. Actually that’s not a good analogy—the Titanic was seaworthy before it hit the burg; the WBCCI’s decks are already awash.

Best of luck with the hurricane.
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:52 PM   #67
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John, thanks for your questions and ideas, I realize what you want but it’s not possible thru the club IMO.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets
The club needs to have a way to oust really bad folks, I don't think you want your family sitting at the camp fire with a sex offender etc."
Another red herring. Of course there needs to be a mechanism for getting rid of really bad actors. But the mechanism should be proof against political abuse.
There are many possibilities to do that what do you or anyone else suggest?

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets
I realize this will not make many happy campers, retroactive reinstatement will not happen, it’s not in the bylaws or RONR anyplace.
Quote:
“Bylaws gives the Executive Committee the power to “affirm, overrule or modify” the recommendation of the Ethics and Grievance committee. Go read that section and see if you see any time limit.”
Time limit doesn't come into play.

It was reviewed at the time the appeal was heard in June.

That’s it, case closed as far as the club was concerned.

All appeals have been exhausted, therefore, his expulsion is Res judicata, meaning a case in which there has been a final judgment and is no longer subject to appeal.

The only relief someone could seek is outside the Club.

Quote:
The point is that the Executive Committee is the final arbiter of WBCCI disciplinary actions and can essentially do whatever they want.
As long as they act within the bylaws & RONR, I suppose you’re correct.

Quote:
Also note that overriding of judicial decisions by executive branches is prevalent in common law; governors of states and the President.....
But they can’t act without authority.

Quote:
But second, if in the collective wisdom of your panel of august parliamentarians, you conclude the Bylaws don’t give the Executive Committee that power, you can recommend the Bylaws be changed to give it to them. That sort of thing is the purpose of your committee, is it not?
Yes if it is the collective consensus.

There is a two year waiting period, commencing February ‘10
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:03 PM   #68
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by eubank View Post
Actually, I agree with this one only half-way. We do indeed have members who are not into the internet. That said, I think even those people might realize that a new age of communication demands new means. To that end, I'd suggest that all publications coming from Jackson Center be made available to members electronically for free; those who require paper copy would be required to pay an extra fee for them. (At least one unit already does this.)
Lynn, makes sense, just some rough stats, of 6,000 members only 3800 have emails.

How about mandatory or strongly recommended wording on the application, adjacent to the box to fill out

Option 1. Publish (to have it for members to contact listing in the Membership Directory.

option 2. Not published (only for club business)

I think that would get the about 5500 out of 6000 emails

Those declining paying an extra fee.

This could be detailed for folks that don't fully understand and withhold their emails for fear of spam in the BB.

Good idea

We need to get the club
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:13 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondocker View Post
What needs elaboration?
Simple, name the specific rally(s)

Quote:
  • Completely eliminate present constitution ok, it needs an update! (1)
  • Eliminate grievance system agree a good idea
  • Eliminate paper version of newsletter Yes all communications need to move into the 21st century using the most advanced tech available.
  • Require all rallies to be self-supporting
Please elaborate on the rallies please.

The suggestions below need more explanation. (2)

  • Dissolve the IBT and replace with a council of presidents(COP) (unit presidents).
  • All business currently conducted by the IBT to be handled by the COP via internet based meetings.
  • COP to designate a chairperson to conduct business meetings. This chair to have no authority beyond this single role.
Thanks for your input.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondocker View Post
(1) Nope, it needs a complete rewrite with only the bare minimum of structure to support operations (i.e. rallies and caravans).
I want to answer this question detail in a day or two, ok?
Need to check something

Quote:
(2) I should think it obvious, but here it is: doing this would strip the club of the bloated and completely unnecessary superstructure/ruling class. It would also make the club more responsive to the general membership. All power to make decisions not voted on by the general membership would be voted on by officers no higher than the unit level.
WOW, how do you propose the entire board votes themselves out of office?

unless you have some plan can't see that passed, have a plan, why would they want to?

I would think the other part of your suggestion about having the membership having more input maybe worth exploring.
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:23 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Simple, name the specific rally(s)


I want to answer this question detail in a day or two, ok?
Need to check something

(2) I should think it obvious, but here it is: doing this would strip the club of the bloated and completely unnecessary superstructure/ruling class. It would also make the club more responsive to the general membership. All power to make decisions not voted on by the general membership would be voted on by officers no higher than the unit level.

WOW, how do you propose the entire board votes themselves out of office?

unless you have some plan can't see that passed, have a plan, why would they want to?

I would think the other part of your suggestion about having the membership having more input maybe worth exploring.

Which specific rallies? All rallies, but the international boondoggle is first on the list.

Do I propose the entire board vote themselves out of office? Yes, I propose precisely that.

Why would they want to? I guess that would depend on motive for having sought office now wouldn't it. I suggest that if the goal was to serve the membership, then it shouldn't be to hard to give up office in return for a better structure. If one is in office for other reasons, then maybe not.

The suggestion about having the membership have more input may be worth exploring? Delighted to hear it may be worth exploring.
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