WBCCI Board Lawsuit

[hampstead38]

Relative to the organization at hand, all of this is playing out like a daytime soap and that is why it has so much appeal and continues day after day. For many, it’s not just enough to travel in their RV, there has to be melodrama to make it exciting. I've played the game as have most of the posters to this forum. The reality is that we all secretly want to be in control of this org and we can't because they got there first!

You gotta be kidding me... right? I'm pretty skeptical of any organization with its own special beanie (due in no small part to having to wear a "dixie cup" for a few years). No disrespect to the Shriners intended, folks.

At this point, I wouldn't join the WBCCI if memberships were free. I also have no desire (secret or otherwise) to have anything to do with actually trying to run the Byam traveling circus and medicine show.

People like Gene and me have been around (in the vernacular of the mythical Colonel Frank Slade). We've seen our share of Bobs. (I'll drop the "we" now because I'm not sure how comfortable Gene is coming along on this particular errand). I saw some good, decent people running off on the fool's errand of a (drop to deep, booming voice) "Federal Lawsuit!". Oh, yeah, we're gonna put our money in a hat and we're gonna sue ourselves a better club.

Right.

Some good, decent people were misled. They've lost money. That isn't a "game." It's a shame. Les agents provocateurs have fractured into bickering factions. As Gene aptly notes, this thread must have the IBT laughing all the way to the bank... depositing the money they now don't have to spend on lawyers. The alternative clubs (and "non-clubs") are proliferating like dandelions. Frankly, the IBT is safer than it has been in years... at least from any direct threats.

I don't need melodrama to enjoy my Overlander. I just need to get it put together. And when I finally get it rolling down the road, the last thing I'm going to worry about is this silliness.

[wam52]

Originally Posted by hampstead38

I don't need melodrama to enjoy my Overlander. I just need to get it put together. And when I finally get it rolling down the road, the last thing I'm going to worry about is this silliness.

If you don't need melodrama why bother posting to my not so obvious effort to downplay all that has happened. Unless you've been in the club at the local level in a unit that has fun folks enjoying what the product was designed for and felt a need to help in creating a better event for all, you haven't experienced the club at its best. The rub for those of us who care(d) is at the next level of organization and the international club! Once you discover the disservice they are perpetrating on the the rest of the membership any serious thoughts of acending to help manage becomes ludicris. After that everything is just fun and games!

This whole set of events and the postings that have gone with it is in fact a game to which many of us have subscribed, "the blame game". You might as well have gone to the local arcade and played "wack a mole". It gives you about as much satisfaction and the real laugh is that this goes on all the way up to Washington. There's where the real blame game is played! I'll pay alot more in taxes next year to keep that game running so in the scheme of things giving a few bucks for a lost cause only teaches one lesson. Don't get involved! But there's no fun in doing that!

WAM

"Live free or Die" baby

[wam52]

Originally Posted by 65GT

So many people posting and writing that what they funded was to see a lawsuit, to have specific items fixed, plus actions that would get us reinstated. I just can't abandon those folks. Some have been taken for $500, $200, $100, etc... More than $1,000.00 in refunds has been requested to be returned and ignored. THAT'S NOT RIGHT...

Leo, you’re absolutely right! It’s not right and sometimes that "getting it right" business takes a lot more time than many would like! In my earlier post I said that with sufficient time there would come a point where those who now hold the purse would make the right decision and return the funds. I believe that! The question is, how long, is too long? A week, ten weeks, 6 months! How long should a reasonable person wait for their money to be returned? So far the message we've received says that it is 4 months. So what course of action is reasonable without resorting to counsel that we haven’t done already?

WAM

[Gene]

A real lawsuit may have accomplished something positive, either through negotiations or a trial. I differ with those who wanted a lawsuit or nothing because the world of litigation is about negotiations and settlements and few cases actually go to trial. The fear of the expense of time and money is the 2 x 4 over the heads of the litigants.

The reason for litigation is dispute resolution.

A lawsuit is not an end in itself, it is a means to settle disputes. Demanding a lawsuit misses the point unless you want to punish someone and not solve a problem. Revenge is a human frailty and is not often a good result for anyone, but it can feel so good for a while. It is empty joy.

Even if a lawsuit were served, the next thing is negotiations. Here it happened beforehand.

In this case, the people who donated the money had no input on the settlement and thus they are angry or disappointed or both. In addition, the settlement, final or interim as it may be, further angered already upset people and now they want to sue for their money.

The initial proponents long ago posted their grievances and some could be pursued in a lawsuit and some could not. If their lawyers educated them on the valid claims, and it appears they did, that has never been explained to the donors. That further increases the frustration. The lack of transparency makes for more frustration.

I expect the unsatisfying settlement is more frustrating than the failure to serve a summons and complaint.

Gene

[pmclemore]

Lipets has made the statement that only a few of the individuals who sent their contributions have asked for their money back, as if that is an argument for holding it.

I, for one, do not understand why any of us should have to ask. These few (these happy few, to steal a turn of phrase) ended the process on their own authority. However the authority they exercised was not that which was given, but was seized. And then they apparently issued self-justified statements that are just not supported by anything other than their sayso. As opposed to the LeoG, who has been very
specific with timelines and correspondence. His specifics would be very easy to disprove - if they are not true. But no such evidence has appeared.

If there was any honor to them, the checks would have been long in the mail. As far as any possibility in restarting anything - there is no chance that anyone would send any further money. That well is poisoned.

I can understand that there are some individuals who feel no shame or responsibility in this. There are always that sort among us. However I do not understand how an entire unit (MetroNY) and its officers can justify holding onto funds in this manner. Surely there are adults in charge someplace up there.

Pat

[hampstead38]

I'm sorry, Wam, but you're making about as much sense to me as 2air. I just don't follow your post.

Gene makes some good points. And there are good reasons to pay for top drawer legal advice rather than rely on poseurs. Better-than-average lawyers get better-than-average results... on average. Not only are they good at managing negotiations, they are good at managing clients. As evidenced by this thread, clients are often the worst enemy of their own litigation. A really good attorney could have taken the raw materials provided by the disaffected members and, I believe, negotiated a settlement far more satisfactory than a seat on a committee.

This amateurism is a thread that continues right through holding the money. A thousand bucks? A couple g's? That's not even coffee money for a real litigator. Holding onto the money is stupid on so many levels. It's not enough money to even begin a real lawsuit so it's worthless as a threat. Holding on to the money is alienating not only past supporters but severely diminishing the chance of getting any new financial backers. The Metro NY unit isn't making any new friends. Even if the money is all eventually returned, the degree of backside toasting created by the delay obviates any potential restoration of goodwill.

We all make mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes cost money. You can talk all day about "honor" and "right" but it's not going to get you one nickel back any sooner.

[Skater]

Originally Posted by hampstead38

At this point, I wouldn't join the WBCCI if memberships were free. I also have no desire (secret or otherwise) to have anything to do with actually trying to run the Byam traveling circus and medicine show.

For what it's worth, we were at a rally a weekend or two ago, and the lawsuit and other WBCCI drama wasn't mentioned once, and we had a GREAT time. We camp alone too, but camping with friends is also fun.

[Buttercup]

Leo,

I just have to ask...

Lets say every dollar is refunded, everybody goes on their own, and the case is closed. What comes next??? What will be the next step for you in your reinstatement? Do you want reinstatement? Are you planning to start a new court case? What is the desired outcome of all of this once all funds have been returned?

I ask because, besides the fact that funds have been donated for a legal action that never took place. If all is resolved with that issue, what will be the next step for you??? What is the outcome you want to see?

[HowieE]

I caution those considering a mass e mailing campaign at the direction of a third party.

As one who has already received a unsupportable Cease and Desist notice from the WBCCI Lawyer directed at the misuse of the members e mail address I have some knowledge in this area. Yes members can e mail other members without consequences. However a consorted effort resulting in a mass effort could fall under Federal Communications Harassment Regulations.

Leo has asked for others to embark on this effort because he has already received his Cease and Desist notice, for such an effort. In his case as a none member he is not protected and thus can't risk doing it again.

[hampstead38]

How about making a daily request for your refund. Send it to the entire board, but copy in the entire unit membership. Post it here online, daily until you get your money back, in full? Heck, copy in the EC7, the R12...

I could see where a daily request could pay off for for everyone involved. They've got your money -- go get it back...

Give it a try for the next 100 days. Let's see how you (and others) fare...

Harassing people--including those who don't have anything to do with the money--doesn't accomplish anything except convincing people you're acting like a jerk.

Used car dealers, landlords, you got anything else that fits into this category? Oh yeah, yeah, how about that friend you loaned money too? Yeah, that's scraping the barrel, isn't it? Isn't that the worst?

How is this any different?

First, caveat donator. Second, cars are routinely sold via contracts. Apartments are rented via lease agreements. There is a reason intelligent adults do business via contracts, leases and other written agreements. Things can and do go wrong. You hand money to a friend (or a stranger) based on some loose verbal understanding, good luck getting your jingle back if things go south.

You want to bash Metro NY for not refunding the money, fine. But every attack is also a statement that the people who gave the money did so foolishly... and in direct contradiction to some very sound advice from people like Gene.

I've made this point before and will make it again. This thread does not cast a flattering light on anyone. The more folks fuss, fume, fret and froth over what happened, the more it seems the people complaining the most are simply never going to be happy.

[Gene]

Ok, maybe there wasn't a settlement or a negotiation. One side says yes, one side says no.

It's just a coincidence that the spokesperson and prime promoter for a lawsuit ends up on a WBCCI committee at the same time he withdraws the threat of a lawsuit for the time being. The stars must have been aligned and the moon was in Aquarius that day because on any other day that looks like a deal was struck.

Do the WBCCI bosses feel their honor is compromised if they admit to negotiations? If so, pretty fragile honor and weak egos.

Gene

[Relentless]

Of course a deal was struck. The only question is who started the conversations that resulted in the final agreement. But who cares? The deal is done. So sue in small claims court.

Sending harrassing emails is just following yet another Pied Piper into what could turn out to be a legal jungle. The last guy you listened to cost you $. This one could cost you all much more.

John

[Gene]

Originally Posted by 65GT

Can you draw any conclusions from this one Gene?

__

No.

All that has happened this year has been brewing for years and years. Knowing all the actors is beyond me. Some things appear clear, much is obscure and Byzantine. Craziness becomes the norm. In a dysfunctional political system, this is what happens.

Gene

[LI Pets]

No one did or will until Feb 1st.

Now, will you release all the clubs historical property that your holding?

Or will you continue to hold club property after Metro NY demanded the return of same saying you will not return the documents unless the contributors are refunded?



Ps: Only 3 requests





.

[LI Pets]

Only 3 direct requests, that's a fact.

A request on a forum is not a legitimate request.

But such requests are a moot point, the date has been stated along with the fact that it will be pro rated against expenses.

[rideair]

Leo,

If you are correct and everything you have is "yours" from work that you have done/documented and not Metro NY, you are a fool if you give up one 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper after the bus they drove over you. Let the powers contiune and if they decide to go forward with a lawsuit at some point, they can try to document everything (will be even tougher with SaveWally gone and the WBCCI forum in the hands of "The Man") that you have in the past. Other things like websites, etc... if their in your name, their yours unless Metro NY paid you to create and even then could be questions.

[rideair]

Leo,

Got an idea.

Hold onto what you have until the Metro NY Unit say's they're going to file a lawsuit against you, then work with the President of the Unit offline until you get placed on one of the Metro NY Units commitees!

Then both of you at that point release statements 180 degrees from each other to the point that no one really knows what happened.

It's worked in the past!

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by 65GT

Just curious,
__

Just Curious an interesting choose of words.

I am "just curious" if you ever had any intent other than to antagonize anyone that you could just for the fun of it.

As one that originally pledged a significant amount towards Defendwally and as one who agreed to supply our lawyer with foundation material necessary to file, you have never met either obligation. If you want to blame someone for the failure of the suit going forward you need go no further than your mirror.

You have lost you steam against the IBT. You have deserted, by your lack of action, those that were in good faith attempting to help you. Once you were expelled you withheld the administration information to Metro NY's web site necessary for them to manage the site. Now you want to hold hostage the units archival information and personnel photographs of the members, that you were entrusted to you to compile into a conical, for the benefit of individuals you did not even have the guts to support financially or commitment wise yourself.

In all you comments you have forgotten to mention that you were one of the 5 individuals that sat with the lawyer and that when we departed there was clear direction that hinged on your efforts that would have allowed the filing before the International. Also you forget to mention that meeting took place 1 month before any contact from anyone related to or representing the Leadership. Had you met your obligations there never would have been the need to entertains any other avenue of action.

[Lily&Me]

Originally Posted by rideair

Leo,

If you are correct and everything you have is "yours" from work that you have done/documented and not Metro NY, you are a fool if you give up one 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper after the bus they drove over you. Let the powers contiune and if they decide to go forward with a lawsuit at some point, they can try to document everything

This gets my vote. You don't owe them anything.


Maggie

[xrvr]

I thought we were waiting for the midwinter meeting. You all know that alot of this stuff may be cleared up then. If not, then carry on with this action of rehashing the same old things over and over. Patience is a virtue, acting like 12 year olds making threats and accusations is juvenile. Wait for the meeting. If nothing is settled, then give em hell. jim .