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Old 09-21-2010, 02:33 PM   #1037
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maggie,

Yes, that's the question of the hour, isn't it? If the committee stands as is, then it should be pretty clear to everyone where it will lead.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:17 AM   #1038
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Even better still, I have to wonder of the three remaining, how many of those actually knew that there NEVER was a negotiation with WBCCI leadership, leading to the appointment of a committee seat in exchange for withholding litigation?

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So, who are the three remaining?? Is it established fact that others have been removed? Who would make these decisions?
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:41 AM   #1039
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Yea, sorry I didn't make that clearer. Only 2 incidence of moderation ever happened on SaveWally that I can remember. One was a person we outright removed from the forums because the person was a plant who was trying to post false and unverifiable information about another person and these postings had nothing to do with the issues SaveWally was working on.
But we did work together as a collaborative effort to produce collateral and we did a ton of fact checking behind the scenes to be sure we had our facts straight before presenting our information. We did read and suggest changes to letters and collateral that others were producing for SaveWally.

Yes, I made a mistake in saying Wally's Sister rather tha Wally's cousin. It was late and by the time it was pointed out to me, it was too late to fix it. of course I know better. I was in a hurry and just typed the wrong thing.


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I'll take just two exceptions to Tim's post... First only team messages had the opportunity to be edited. We worked on these as a group before they were posted or fliers were made as in the "What about (fill in name here)?" series during the SOB MoHo campaign. These were official SW messages, stances on the issues. Nobody had the opportunity to edit my daily messages, unless I specifically asked for a review before I posted. Out of the 3-4K's worth of posts over 4 years, regardless of what the team might have thought about them, those posts were all mine, unedited...



Tim, had yours been a group message, that would have been the first correction...

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Old 09-23-2010, 08:37 AM   #1040
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"Even better still, I have to wonder of the three remaining, how many of those actually knew that there NEVER was a negotiation with WBCCI leadership, leading to the appointment of a committee seat in exchange for withholding litigation?

That could be the most telling part of all, right there...

originally posted by 65GT"


Begs the question, though, was it offered up by the doer.

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Old 09-27-2010, 11:03 PM   #1041
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Old 09-28-2010, 10:46 AM   #1042
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Not to point out the obvious here, but the MetroNY unit is still comprised of entirely people who are members of the WBCCI. Put simply, these are all people who are dues paying members of the existing organization. If these folks won't even given you your money back, why would anyone expect them to be the long awaited catalyst for change?

There won't be a lawsuit. The committee won't change anything. Why not either accept the WBCCI--warts and all--or just leave? I just don't understand how any social club can be so important to people that they will spend this much time and energy banging their head against a wall.
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Old 09-28-2010, 12:33 PM   #1043
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Leo,

Said to hear that news.

One must ask, "Why do they think they have the right to hold the money?"

That is just wrong!!
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Old 09-28-2010, 07:36 PM   #1044
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We all signed up on SaveWally and pledged our money to support MetroNY in their lawsuit to bring about changes in WBCCI. I'm not sure of the legality... but when you say you are going to do something and don't do it, to me that's a breach of a contract. I see no logical reason to hold our money and we are demanding it be returned to each and every member or non member the full amount that was pledged. Hutch309
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Old 09-28-2010, 08:45 PM   #1045
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........................ I'm not sure of the legality... but when you say you are going to do something and don't do it, .........................
I'm not up on the law and maybe Gene will weigh in to clear this up, however, it seems to me that taking peoples money and not doing what was promised puts them into danger of patent or copyright infringement charges from congress. I bet they guard that racket pretty tight.
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:01 PM   #1046
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I'm not up on the law and maybe Gene will weigh in to clear this up, however, it seems to me that taking peoples money and not doing what was promised puts them into danger of patent or copyright infringement charges from congress. I bet they guard that racket pretty tight.
Sad but true- and VERY funny.
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:10 PM   #1047
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"Why do they think they have the right to hold the money?"
First, because they can. A few hundred dollars won't justify an interstate lawsuit, and

Second, now that Bob is on a first name basis with the IP, they're probably holding the contributions as evidence for a round of grievances to be filed against those members who had the temerity to contribute.
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:51 PM   #1048
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A PM from LIPETS

Based on my post of saying I didn't understand what right the Metro NY Unit has to keep the money based on Leo posting they were keeping the money for an "Indefinite" amount of time, I got the following PM from "LI PETS" of which he said at the bottom that "If you wish to post that U may". So, I will.

"Leo,

Said to hear that news.

One must ask, "Why do they think they have the right to hold the money?"

That is just wrong!!

-----

Don't be sad it's all lies, that's not what happened at all.

He wasn't there.

In a meeting on 9/25 it was stated that pro rata refunds of all contributions will be made upon a favorable outcome of the presentation of the Revised Bylaws following the MidWinter meeting in Texas.



If you wish to post that U may
.



.
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To that, I say, I don't see the difference!

Leo stated an "indefinite" amount of time. Have they given a date/time when the money would be returned? When is the next Metro NY business meeting that would allow the members of that unit to vote on the release of the money or can the execs of the unit decide that on thier own?

If on looks what "indefinite" means: I'd say what Leo is saying and Bob is saying is the same. There is no date say like 01/15/2011 the money will be returned.
in·def·i·nite

   /ɪnˈdɛfənɪt/ Show Spelled[in-def-uh-nit] Show IPA
–adjective 1. not definite; without fixed or specified limit; unlimited: an indefinite number.

2. not clearly defined or determined; not precise or exact: an indefinite boundary; an indefinite date in the future.

I also got a phone call from someone about my posting saying depending on what happens at the mid-winter IBT that the lawsuit could move forward. Based on that I told them they will have a very hard time after all this of ever getting anyone to give money for that.

Time will tell. I hope all is made right in the end.








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Old 09-28-2010, 10:15 PM   #1049
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A partial quote from Paul's comment, attributed to LIPets: " In a meeting on 9/25 it was stated that pro rata refunds of all contributions will be made upon a favorable outcome of the presentation of the Revised Bylaws following the MidWinter meeting in Texas."

I would like to know what "a favorable outcome" means and why it is to come following the midwinter meeting. Wouldn't any favorable outcome be at the meeting?

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Old 09-29-2010, 10:39 AM   #1050
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Since the question was asked—is there an enforceable obligation to return the money in whole or part?—I will tell you why I can't answer it. I have posted this before, but apparently the heat generated blinds everyone.

It appears solicitations were made to certain people asking for donations along with a statement of some sort concerning a lawsuit. Not having seen the solicitations (please don't send me any) and not knowing what promises may have been otherwise made to a group or to individuals, I do not have a basis to know whether some sort of enforceable agreement was made.

There have been assertions that donations were made in exchange for a lawsuit. I do not know whether that is true or partially true or not. Obviously all involved have different perceptions of the matter.

Donors who make contributions to nonprofit organizations sometimes believe the terms of the donations required the organization to use the funds for certain purposes and no other. Donors have not fared well in these lawsuits. Whether a donation is restricted or not can be difficult to discover and the bias is toward interpreting them as unrestricted. This is not quite the same thing as it appears the "organization" accepting the funds was an ad hoc group that may be considered an unincorporated association, not the usual nonprofit. But this group may have had lawyer's advice in crafting the solicitation—it may have been good or bad advice. The solicitation may have been sloppy or not.

Notice how many times words like "appears", "may" and such appear above—there's a lot to know and it may look different for different people.

For further learning, your local law library will have treatises on contracts that you no doubt will find fulfilling. The adventures of the parol evidence rule and promissory estoppel await you.

Why are the funds being held in escrow? I don't know either, but it may be because it is believed that the threat of a lawsuit is sustained by the money in escrow and that the WBCCI will not respond unless the threat is still there. This is not irrational, but has never been explicitly stated by whomever has the keys to the escrow account. The irony of this is that if the money is returned, the lawsuit will not happen, but if the money is held in escrow, maybe there will be a lawsuit. Further, some eventual outcome may be better than could be obtained by a lawsuit.

But since trust levels are below zero, the situation is untenable. If I were on the IBT I would be breathing better after hearing of this thread.

If there a solution? A group of disinterested individuals could manage the escrow and decide what to do about it. Bob could be replaced on the committee of damaged reputation by someone universally respected. I have no idea who is above all this and could make it happen. Good luck.

Gene
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