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Old 09-16-2010, 07:04 AM   #995
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Metro NY is a chartered group of WBCCI. If you are planning to be a plaintiff in a lawsuit against WBCCI, giving a WBCCI-chartered unit access to your arguments, documents, contacts and donors in exchange for a $2,000 donation is a self-defeating move. It allows a WBCCI-subsidiary access you would not give to WBCCI itself.

Whose idea was it to allow Metro NY to become involved? Metro NY's?

Anyone else having a "no d'uh!" moment?
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:30 AM   #996
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Sad, sad, sad.

Some actions in this are no less than disgraceful and an embarrassment to the human race. Where is one's sense of personal integrity, moral compass, character, etc.? You know who you are.

I'm disgusted.

Maggie
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Old 09-16-2010, 11:08 AM   #997
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Sad, sad, sad.

Some actions in this are no less than disgraceful and an embarrassment to the human race. Where is one's sense of personal integrity, moral compass, character, etc.? You know who you are.

I'm disgusted.

Maggie
I'm with you 100% Maggie!

Believe me, it's not the amount of the donation that I made that bothers me (which I will probably never see returned), it's the deceit and back room dealings that cut the deepest.

NEVER AGAIN!
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Old 09-16-2010, 01:29 PM   #998
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Grievance, anybody?

Poor Michelle. I'm sure she never expected all this grief when she signed on to be a unit officer. She has my deepest sympathy.

Seems to me that this would make a pretty good basis for a grievance.

For that matter I wonder if there is a basis for actual criminal charges--wire fraud? Maybe one of the real lawyers who has been following this fiasco would care to comment.

Doubt it would be of any interest to a prosecutor, though. But we can always hope.
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Old 09-16-2010, 01:42 PM   #999
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Whoever is holding the funds certainly has no basis in law to retain them, once the bills are settled.

The filing of a half dozen claims in small claims court would get things moving along very quickly, at minimal cost, and would reflect badly on the party holding the money - knowing this, 14 days notice of the impending lawsuit may do a lot to free up access to your respective monies.

Furthermore, you can sue for the amount given, before expenses. You can do this in the county court in YOUR jurisdiction, forcing the funds holder to defend lawsuits in numerous jurisdictions - something they cannot economically do.
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:54 PM   #1000
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Let's be careful about encouraging lawsuits, folks, as that's how this all got going in the first place. This is a very expensive step to take, and even more expensive to keep going!!

That said, a sanction of some sort is clearly in order, perhaps best to be taken by the doers own unit.

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Old 09-16-2010, 02:57 PM   #1001
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Once again, The post that was and now is not. (per forum rules) was very interesting and told a completely opposite story than had been told here.

If you can find it. It's worth your time to read the International President's letter regarding the new committee, lawsuit and other associated issues.
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:57 PM   #1002
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A claim in small claims court costs about $35, plus about $60-80 for service, depending on jurisdiction. These costs are paid by the defendant if you win, or they don't show up.
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:01 PM   #1003
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A claim in small claims court costs about $35, plus about $60-80 for service, depending on jurisdiction. These costs are paid by the defendant if you win, or they don't show up.
Small Claims cannot be used to sue someone out of state. To cross state lines with your suit you need to file an actual civil suit in State Court or in Federal court.
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:41 PM   #1004
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Once again, every state does things differently, but some generalities—

Small claims court is a good way to collect small sums. This kind of court sometimes has a reputation for splitting the difference between the parties—i.e., claim $100, you get $50. That reputation is not always the truth and shouldn't stop people from going forward.

You generally have to sue in the jurisdiction where the defendant is, or, maybe, the asset is. If the defendant lives in Suffolk Co., NY, as a random example, you go to the court there. If the money is in a bank in Nassau County, NY, you may be able to sue there. But you may be able to sue where the agreement was made—try to pin that one down. You would have to check with the courts about jurisdiction. It's been 32 years since I lived in NY, so civil procedure there may have changed a lot. Get out your copy of McKinney's CPLR (Civil Procedure Laws and Rules) and start reading. How you establish jurisdiction regarding an agreement made on the internet is much newer than me.

You may have multiple defendants—the original promoters of the lawsuit, a bank with the escrow fund, Metro NY unit. You only have to have jurisdiction over one of them and then you can serve all of them.

In my experience, Small Claims Courts (which may be a division of County Court and not actually a Court, but a Division or Part) mail a summons and complaint to the defendant instead of personal service. This saves money, though I have constitutional questions about it. Fees probably vary a lot from state to state.

Theoretically, you can fill out the forms, mail stuff and pay fees from far away, but you do have to appear on the trial date.* Most likely the judge or magistrate will encourage a settlement to save time. In the '70's, judges in County Court in NY would ask for lawyers waiting for County Court cases to mediate settlements. It was not a good idea to complain about it or refuse. Generally, lawyers are not allowed to represent parties in Small Claims Court.

Trying a class action is this very informal tribunal is likely to result in some muted laughter. You need to have the agreement regarding donations. It could be a series of messages sent back and forth or some letter posted on the internet. Whether this is fraud, breach of contract, promissory estoppel, misrepresentation or some other legal claim is not so important in this type of action—I think the form may not even ask for a legal theory because this is for laymen, not lawyers. The judge or mediator or whoever hears the claims is supposed to know the legal theory.

And the loser may be able to appeal to County Court for a formal trial. I suppose a litigious individual might.

Is that clear? Do you really want to go through this?

Gene

*you could assign or sell your claim ("chose in action") to someone else who lives in or near the county where the claim is filed, but you are your best witness, so it's better to be there. Yeh, I could find a way around that, but just how complicated do you want to go?
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:58 PM   #1005
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Old 09-16-2010, 04:01 PM   #1006
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Once again, The post that was and now is not. (per forum rules) was very interesting and told a completely opposite story than had been told here.

If you can find it. It's worth your time to read the International President's letter regarding the new committee, lawsuit and other associated issues.
Oh here yesterday gone today, hmmm. Well perhaps I may try to fill in any blanks from memory if that is not a breech of any sort. And since this letter was addressed to MNY who is also acting upon Defend Wally and the contributors' behalves then it is truely meant to be shared among us and not secreted away or the IP would not have penned it in regard to the current events. And I am surprised that Michele and Howie have not sent the IP's letter directly to correct the misconceptions to all the contributors and supporters of Defend Wally as the latest update along with apologies and provision for speedy refunded contributions. The IBT may certainly benefit from Bob's actions where we have not. Who just played who and who has the last laugh may be open to some debate for time to come. It is enough to say that Bob did not act in an approriate manner for his commission of Defend Wally.

The International President in communicating to the MNY unit has shown that the previous information given to supporters of the lawsuit has been eroneous and unfactual. If I remember correctly about the gist of what was said, it was something along the order of these sentiments as closely as I can recall and of course paraphrasing.

It has been represented that a letter on September 1st indicated that there was no negotiation between the IBT and Defend Wally or MNY for a committee seat in exchange for withdrawing the lawsuit as was told to us by Bob and the MNY unit president's letter that was sent out to all contributors by Howie.

The recent posting on Airforums have been brought to the IP's attention and he was compelled to provide clarification on several points.

First, however, he wanted to be allowed to state that a group called Save/Defend Wally holds little interest for him, for it is not a chartered Unit of the WBCCI. He did not know who they are or what they represent. He did say he knew that not all members of the Metro New York Unit support Save/Defend Wally. He stated that his interest is in growing the Club and providing quality recreational opportunities to WBCCI members in our Units and Regions.

The IP went on to say that it was stated that the Metro New York Unit was contacted by WBCCI and that he had no doubt that could be true - it is a big Club. He went on to say that following that statement was an allegation that subsequent discussions "centered on withholding the lawsuit in exchange for appointing a representative" to the Constitution, Bylaws and Policy Revision Committee and for accuracy, he then assures that no member of the WBCCI Executive Committee initiated discussions with anyone in the Metro New York Unit for the reason stated before. He further contends, the Metro New York Unit did not place its representative on the Bylaws Revision Committee. It didn't happen. He rejects any linkage between Committee membership and a threatened lawsuit by the Metro New York Unit against the WBCCI.

Then he summarized what did happen as he saw it. Upon learning of the Revision Committee from Howie L., Bob N. became interested in becoming a Committee member. Bob sent him an email which asked that he call him, and he did on July 28. They had a cordial exchange of ideas and discussion of issues, which included the threatened lawsuit. The IP advised him that he could not influence what others may or may not do in the future. There was no linkage between the threatened lawsuit and the Committee. Then when Bob expressed interest in Committee membership to the IP, he was advised that a nomination from his Unit President, would be considered the same as other nominations for the two remaining positions. This is the only time the IP had spoken with Bob. The undated nomination makes no mention of a seat at the table for him or anyone else in exchange for suspension or withdrawal of the lawsuit.

Following review of the nomination and positive recommendation by Committee members already appointed, the IP appointed Bob on August 18. There was no deal made to avoid a lawsuit expressed or implied in his nomination from his unit or in the IP's appointment of him. The IP goes on to say not to make this suggestion now and that last week there were additional references in Airforums postings to a lawsuit. He says that all this does is poison the water. It does make it necessary for him as IP to restate part of the PP's email to the MNY on May 18, 2010 that they need to be aware that if anyone files a lawsuit against the WBCCI or the IBT, the club will vigorously defend itself in court.

The WBCCI now has five motivated members who represent different geographical areas of the Club, with perhaps different points of view, and who offer a variety of personal qualifications and WBCCI experiences. The Executive Committee looks forward to the recommendations to be made by this Committee and that their first report is expected at the Mid-Winter IBT Meeting in January, 2011. The IP then asks that MNY allows them to do their work without additional distractions and misrepresentations.

And that was about it except that I would reiterate as several others have mentioned that Bob was playing both sides of the field and no one was getting the real deal in his quest for his own advantage and acting shamefully towards all.
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Old 09-16-2010, 04:25 PM   #1007
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Small Claims cannot be used to sue someone out of state. To cross state lines with your suit you need to file an actual civil suit in State Court or in Federal court.
Metro NY does business in other states - you can sue a party in a different state if they have conducted other business in your state. Metro NY has conducted business in any state where they have a member. Therefore, arguably, any state that will allow you to sue out of state will allow this type of claim. If you're unsure, join Metro NY

Or you could just file in NY using their website - they take online submissions ...but you would be liable for travel costs to go there - only legal fees are reimbursed if they lose.

I have a legal service on retainer, and they confirmed this for me before I posted.
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Old 09-16-2010, 04:37 PM   #1008
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Metro NY does business in other states - you can sue a party in a different state if they have conducted other business in your state. Metro NY has conducted business in any state where they have a member. Therefore, arguably, any state that will allow you to sue out of state will allow this type of claim. If you're unsure, join Metro NY

Or you could just file in NY using their website - they take online submissions ...but you would be liable for travel costs to go there - only legal fees are reimbursed if they lose.

I have a legal service on retainer, and they confirmed this for me before I posted.
The problem most run into with small claims and out of state defendants is that in most states small claims matters have to be served within the state.

So you could sue any company that does business in your state even if they are based in another state if you have an agent for process of service in your state.

Hopefully are "legal" discussion remains academic and the issues are settled to everyone's satisfaction.
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