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Old 03-04-2010, 09:41 PM   #85
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The main problem with lawsuits is that the real winners are the lawyers. Thus such actions are to be avoided at all costs. Better idea is to try to rally a number of members to collectively show dissatisfaction with the status quo and elect candidates who are committed to change.
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:09 PM   #86
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Bob,

OK - sorry but the confidence level drops, especially knowing how fond the IBT/EC have been of you in the past. I don't see how they would work with you in arbitrage when they worked harder to kick you out and were unsuccessful at that.
I also have a hunch that memories do not fade as fast as membership levels are when it comes to controversial members and I still do not have much hope that they will respond in the positive for your offer.
In the meantime, my feeling is to continue to support the DefendWally effort because it is a move forward in dealing with the issues at hand.
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:21 AM   #87
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i have been reading the posts and can see each side of this matter. most people feel strongly about what they want the club to be. it is nice to know that there are still people that care and want to do something about it.

imho i think an independent mediator might be what is needed b4 anyone goes to court. there are strong feelings on both sides and sometimes that tends to cloud up and distort what we are trying to say. point assumeing what the other wants.

this is a great club with caring people and i would like to see it handled in a professional manner. the $$ it would take for a mediator will be less than the lawyers fees. most courts will recommend an arbiter/mediator when there is so many feelings involved.

sorry to be so long-winded but i do care about all of you that are concerned. i thank you for letting me have my say. pat
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:30 AM   #88
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There are such things as arbitration and mediation that are "binding", I believe, and can be enforced by court order, if necessary---without the many years additionally involved and high costs of litigation. What you need is a level playing field.

Maggie
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Old 03-05-2010, 07:20 AM   #89
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Difficult to send e-mails when the addresses are either rejected (defective) or unknown. Therefore the "open letter" to all of them. Have considered regular mail, but my last letters have gone unanswered.
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What you need is a level playing field.

Maggie
And there in lies the rub... hard to have a level playing field or arbitration when only one side is willing to communicate.

I will go back to listening again for a while..
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Old 03-05-2010, 07:40 AM   #90
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That level playing field can only be found in Federal Court!

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most courts will recommend an arbiter/mediator when there is so many feelings involved. pat
This is frequently done in lower Courts like small claims.

Folks there's no provision in the Constitution or Bylaws to have arbitration.

Federal Courts in civil maters do not do this -- they have a trial.

Most arbitration is considered binding: parties who agree to arbitration are bound to that agreement.

Do you think even if you could get the IBT to agree they would expose themselves to the likely result thereby, setting precedent for future claims against the club to be handled this way?

They will not agree, their lawyers will advise them not to agree.


Moreover, they allow no option for appeal, expecting parties who arbitrate to assume the risks of the process.Therefore foreclosing an opportiniity to Court action if the outcome is not believed to to fair and just.

Now to Bob T's intervention,(I thought he told folks he was starting a new club) while I think his intent is good, and if they even reply to his request I would be shocked.

He himself said they ignored his previous communication, so he has no way to get to the IBT in the first place.

Bob T should have run this idea up the flag pole before he posted it here IMO.

If you folks want to SAVE this 55 year old club lets get this dispute in front of a Federal Judge in New York.



The Federal Court in Islip NY
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:44 AM   #91
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...can see each side of this matter.

imho i think an independent mediator might be what is needed b4 anyone goes to court. - Transplant

I beg to differ -- there is no other side. ...
I've tried to keep out of this catfight, but do suspect that this quote would instantiate a mediator's nightmare.
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Old 03-05-2010, 09:27 AM   #92
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"Folks there's no provision in the Constitution or Bylaws to have arbitration.

Federal Courts in civil maters do not do this -- they have a trial.

Most arbitration is considered binding: parties who agree to arbitration are bound to that agreement."

Arbitration rulings (binding) sometimes have to be enforced by court order. Arbitration is sometimes entered into voluntarily to resolve issues, but requires external motivation and pressure on both parties.

When I refer to a level playing field, I am referring to someone, anyone, with authority outside the immediate parties who can objectively review facts and rule.

With all due respect to Leo, Bob and other aggrieved parties, that you have to solicit monetary pledges for contributions to pursue this legally concerns me, and it has nothing to do with the merit of your issues and perhaps those of others.

It has to do with the thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars which need to be laid out to pursue something in Federal court. Bob, you said that isn't true---and you are wrong. Retainers are just that, and when that money is spent the bills begin to come and have to be paid for the case to continue----which may occur before you ever get a complaint filed in court---unless you are able to get attorneys to pursue this without payment, which is unlikely, in my opinion, and does not sound as if it is occurring. A Federal lawsuit can then be dismissed, leaving you with no reimbursement for money laid out, attorney fees still to be paid and no ruling in your favor, settlement, etc.

Are you going to have to rely on the contributions of Forum readers to do this, and once people have made a pledge do you consider them having a stake in the outcome and good for more $ as needed? If they are not enough, are you prepared to take out a second mortgage on your home, sell things you own, etc., to finance this? Is your case that solid that you are being assured of victory? Unlikely, and no attorney worth his salt would make that kind of claim.

You may well not be able to get the attention of the IBT without filing something in court, that would be very understandable in light of all the animosity and these public threats to sue. It may be very, very difficult, also, to get what you want and need in Federal court.

When one is very egregiously wronged, especially publicly, the pain, humiliation and anger that go along with that kind of victimization are very compelling emotions TO DO SOMETHING to set the record straight and perhaps achieve retribution. It is understandable and something with which I emphasize. I also want to point out that you are and have been doing SOMETHING by publicizing here the problems within WBCCI and rallying significant support from passionate Airstreamers.

What concerns me is that you all understand fully what you are getting into and what you are pulling others into by trying to get them to help.

If you think that I am a "plant" or somehow connected with the IBT/on their side, etc., nothing could be further from the truth.

May you find peace with this, all of you.

Maggie
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:12 AM   #93
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The IRS got Capone...

Query:

Do we have any Forum Members who are current or former IRS Agents?
Do we have anyone who is friendly with an IRS Agent.

My nephew worked as a maintenance man for a large apartment complex. He had a modest salary and a free 3 bedroom apartment. When he filed taxes he had to list AS INCOME the $900 per month rental freebie as income along with the salary.

So - the people who get a month of free camping at the International - and free meals and other perks - Isn't that supposed to be reported as INCOME if it's over a few hundred per year?

If the IRS went after the IBT & it's cronies (a) it would be faster and cheaper than a lawsuit and (b) while it alone wouldn't force a policy of one person one vote OR a policy of openness about making the rules - it might encourage some bullies to really pull in their horns. The whole issue of the WBCCI keeping it's non-profit status could very well force change.

just my half-baked 3.1417 cents.... (PI are round, not square!) Paula
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:23 AM   #94
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Paula

I find most people gourd by the IRS do not come away with a sprite of cooperation.

You are correct in your interpretation of tax law but that along will not solve the underling problems.
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Old 03-05-2010, 11:35 AM   #95
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Maggie, with respect have you ever litigated a case in Federal Court?

We have done our due diligence in ferreting out the costs with a very qualified law firm.
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Old 03-05-2010, 11:44 AM   #96
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So - the people who get a month of free camping at the International - and free meals and other perks - Isn't that supposed to be reported as INCOME if it's over a few hundred per year? Paula
Paula we can add to that demo motor homes given and then sold at a discount.

The travel expenses.

Non Profits are handled differently if they were not reported each individual will be liable to IRS.

Remember there has been no independent audits of the club’s financial affairs (e.g. all audits have been “in-house” in that selected members review and produce financial statements).
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:03 PM   #97
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Maggie, with respect have you ever litigated a case in Federal Court?

We have done our due diligence in ferreting out the costs with a very qualified law firm.
I have and it was resolved in my favor.

I find it not believable that a "very qualified law firm" would be sanctioning what you are doing and representing here, and feel you may not have all the information you and others need.

Maggie
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:18 PM   #98
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Quote:
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I have and it was resolved in my favor.
Ahhhhh so you litigate but tell this group to arbitrate, interesting....

I guess you couldn't find that level field

Quote:
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There are such things as arbitration and mediation that are "binding", I believe, and can be enforced by court order, if necessary---without the many years additionally involved and high costs of litigation. What you need is a level playing field.
Quote:
I find it not believable that a "very qualified law firm" would be sanctioning what you are doing and representing here, and feel you may not have all the information you and others need.
They don't need to sanction anything why would they?

What ever information others need just have them ask or PM me please.



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