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Old 08-30-2010, 08:02 AM   #911
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Originally Posted by dwightdi View Post
Has anyone read the "Letter to the editor" in the just posted September Blue Beret? It is wonderful, when you control the only authorized communication channel within the club to put out only your one side for the story. They never heard o fair and balanced.
I am withholding my dues until after the mid-winter IBT (if I ever pay them at all). What happens there determines whether I remain in the club. If membership is opened up to non-Airstream owners, I am gone. I had might as well join Good Sam?

John W. Irwin
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Old 08-30-2010, 09:06 AM   #912
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I am also gone if membership is opened to non AS owners.

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Old 08-30-2010, 09:11 AM   #913
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Death match

Originally Posted by 62overlander View Post
at least this newest twist has taken everyone's mind off of the MOHO issue...

Crawfordgene, is this changing of purpose of funds a breach of contract? Could this change of direction by DW/NYUtoh be the grounds of yet a new lawsuit?
I don't know what promises were made in the solicitations for funds. The power of public disclosure and moral pressure are your best bet. Suing the promoters of the effort would also be a diversion of resources taking everyone's mind off of MoHo's and all the other stuff.

If the promoters promised a lawsuit and nothing but a lawsuit, maybe there's a claim. But wouldn't people, when they wrote the checks, have some thoughts about whether negotiations might prevent a lawsuit? It happens often enough. There's obviously more to the solicitations and maybe they were written foolishly without consultation with lawyers.

Are you angry about the money, about being sandbagged, about Bob's personality, about the irony, about the WBCCI? I think the question now is how to take action to achieve the results that were originally hoped for. I know it's may be hard to set aside the anger, but what is the goal(s)?

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Old 08-30-2010, 09:58 AM   #914
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There isn't a claim, Gene not unless one of the unhappy supporters is a pedantic legal hobbyist with a penchant for silly DIY lawsuits.

The bottom line is that the lawsuit is over. If it was hard to raise money to challenge the IBT before, it will be doubly so now. Perhaps that's not an entirely bad thing. As noted frequently on this thread, you cannot litigate the WBCCI into becoming a better Airstream Club. And this notion that changing the rules will transform the WBCCI is simply misguided. There are thousands of members who are apparently happy enough to send in a check every year. Put simply, the WBCCI may suck for some... but it clearly doesn't suck for everybody.

Gene, as usual, asks the right question. What is the goal? Even if those of you who didn't practice caveat donator get your money back, what then? Another mythical lawsuit? Another committee? The best way to facilitate change in the WBCCI is to stop underwriting the status quo. Simply quit. Convince others that there's more fun, fellowship and freedom outside the club. The more members that walk, the greater the chance that there will be some meaningful change.
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Old 08-30-2010, 11:00 AM   #915
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Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
There isn't a claim, Gene not unless one of the unhappy supporters is a pedantic legal hobbyist with a penchant for silly DIY lawsuits.
Hamp', I'm unsure which claims you mean. It is possible that donors were promised a lawsuit regardless of anything else, and if so, they may have a claim under several legal theories that would not be laughed out of court . Spending more money to get that money—$50, $100, whatever—may be a bad investment (good money after bad).

So far as the claims against the WBCCI, there are some claims that could be made, but as for the ones posted in a list several days ago, and also long before that, most of them are not good legal claims and some good legal claims were left out. It was a list of grievances that supposedly was a list of legal claims. That list, which I don't want to spend time looking for, was the product of a layman's anger (some certainly was justified anger), but not the product of someone with some legal expertise.

Whether a well put together lawsuit with sensible plaintiffs would change the WBCCI is uncertain. It could put sufficient pressure on the organization to make for real change. To beat the dead (and by now, moldy) horse, an effort to change the WBCCI needs to have several tactics as part of an overall strategy based on some basic goals. Change unit officers if they are not on your side, elect regional officers that agree with you, draw up your own bylaws and other organic document changes, challenge the IBT at every plenary meeting, choose some spokespeople who are reasonable and know how to organize and who do not anger and insult their natural supporters. Form a group with strong and trusted leadership first of all, define goals, create a strategy to further the goals, develop tactics kin line with both. This takes time and money, but especially time, not to mention lots of money if a lawsuit is pursued. In previous posts, I have said "grassroots organizing"—that's what it takes. With all that work, you could form another group to go camping.

Is it worth it? Some may say so, but most vote with their feet, quit the WBCCI, and go it alone or join another group. I see many people don't want to quit the WBCCI because they have formed friendships within units; eventually they will find a way to have non-WBCCI rallies. The antithesis of the WBCCI is TAC and those rallies could be within that structure, or simply through this forum.

As I see it, the WBCCI has a historic legacy*, but increasingly it is otherwise dated and superfluous. What's easier? Reform the WBCCI or go another way, especially when those ways are readily available through social media.


*Over the first years of its existence, the WBCCI grew fast, but for most of its existence (30 years is often stated) it has been losing members, so maybe the bulk of its legacy is failure.
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Old 08-30-2010, 11:11 AM   #916
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Question A Death Match or a Death March?

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
... what is the goal(s)?

We're gonna have to think about that....

What IS the ultimate goal?

(FWIW, Nietzsche deserved a red card and Socrates was offsides.)

"Beyond Good and Evil"
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:19 PM   #917
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Originally Posted by nasons View Post
Numerous Defend Wally and Metro NY members are dissatisfied with the WBCCI status quo, and feel that positive change in the club is both urgent and necessary if it is to survive. These same members believe that their voices are not being heard, and that positive change is being blocked by antiquated, cumbersome club procedures and disinterested past officers. To address this situation, Defend Wally created a legal fund and Metro NY later came on board as an additional plaintiff. Legal counsel was retained to file suit against WBCCI and institute change.

During the course of preparing the law suit, Defend Wally/Metro NY was contacted by WBCCI. Discussions began, and eventually centered on withholding the lawsuit in exchange for appointing a representative from Defend Wally/Metro NY to sit on a newly created “By-Laws Revision Committee.” This five member Committee would be tasked with consolidating and incorporating changes to the club’s Bylaws and Constitution. Encouraged by this turn of events and intent upon having a seat at the table to institute positive change within WBCCI, Defend Wally/Metro NY has decided to withhold filing suit in the hope that changes in the club can be achieved amicably through this new Committee.

Unfortunately, Mr. Leo G has declined such compromise. He has moved on in another direction and is in no way involved with Defend Wally/Metro NY’s desire to achieve change through dialogue, negotiation, and compromise.

Defend Wally/Metro NY has chosen a representative to the Committee, and he has been duly appointed by WBCCI. It is the desire of this individual to represent any members who are dissatisfied with the club, and to bridge the disharmony between our groups. This representative will be a conduit for these dissatisfied members, and seek to institute constructive change and cooperation from within the club. We believe it is critical to the club’s creditability that the concerns of these members be properly addressed, and that the parties continue to operate in good faith, toward the resolution of any outstanding issues.

To this end we have directed counsel to suspend legal action while the By-Laws Revision Committee meets to generate its recommendations, and the WBCCI act upon same.

Michele M. Curley
President Metro NY Unit
and on behalf of Defend Wally
In other words you caved for a little of the spot light. This whole thing has been about a few people wanting to be a big cheese. Sold out.

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Old 08-31-2010, 09:32 AM   #918
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The Anonymous Sock Puppet Speaks......

The Anonymous Sock Puppet Speaks

Once upon a time there was a little unit called Metro NY not the biggest but the friendliest…… how things have changed.
For a few years they happily camped together and enjoyed their campfires, drums, snakebites and all the other good things that went along with a SOCIAL CAMPING CLUB.
Then one day a forward thinking creative member decided there were many things wrong with the club and the feckless leadership. Well a lot of the higher ups decided he was a bad guy and grieved against him. They did it twice ………the first time was a take back but the second time they meant business and threw him out for real. …..Some other people from the air forums started a defense fund for this guy…….
The little group?……well hell they all liked this guy and thought it was not fair he got thrown out. after all he was a part of the little group and did many good deeds for them. They rallied round and voted at the spring rally meeting to throw their support and $$ to help get him reinstated. It was mostly about the reinstatement as most members had no clue what irresponsible deeds the feckless leaders were committing.
Because the defense fund was not a legal entity, had no bank account,or formal chain of command in place the little group thought ……well gee ”let’s help the friend out and allow the treasurer to take the pledges of money and hold it until the time seemed ripe”.
The people were going to see the lawyer and needed a check because we all know you can’t visit the lawyer without $$ . So who wrote the check for the lawyer? Must have been this guys friends. YUP. Well lawyers advise the people that visited him “you most likely will not win anything by trying to sue the feckless leaders for their travesties because let’s face it is a social club after all” it will be a useless spending of thousands of dollars and for naught”. However the friend and his wife that were thrown out….. they stand a very real chance of suing and actually winning punitive damages. …
So everyone goes back to the drawing board and lo and behold some of the feckless leaders agents approach the lawyer and the people and seem to want to strike a deal.
His friends insist that part of the deal is to reinstate the nice guy but the feckless leaders agents say oh no if we do that there is someone else standing in the wings waiting to file yet another grievance against this nice guy. (poor fella just can’t catch a break)

So what are his friends to do? . Then the agents approach and say they are forming a new committee to rewrite the by-laws and if someone that seems to know the issues at hand would be interested in sitting on that committee….Well heck it may be a working solution and it may accomplish maybe SOME of the goals of the nice guy…. and then everyone can all get back to the business of camping. ….this little club is by now getting a little overwhelmed with the responsibility of this money and the looming lawsuit and think….yeah this just may be the solution and it could actually work……the very least they can do is “give it a try”…………………and so here they are willing to at least try………….

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Old 08-31-2010, 09:45 AM   #919
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I hope this fairytale has a fairytale ending in which they somehow find a solution where everyone lives happily ever after, but it already looks like one of the main good guy characters has been thrown under the bus and been run over. 42 people, plus a few extras, are writing this story but all 6,400 of us will be directly effected.
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Old 08-31-2010, 09:58 AM   #920
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Originally Posted by dwightdi View Post
I hope this fairytale has a fairytale ending in which they somehow find a solution where everyone lives happily ever after, but it already looks like one of the main good guy characters has been thrown under the bus and been run over. 42 people, plus a few extras, are writing this story but all 6,400 of us will be directly effected.
I'm reasonably certain that at least a few others are writing this story as well....

Do we know if IP Norm Beu replied to Michele Curley about her posting yet?
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:01 AM   #921
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Why are so many "anonymous"? I was alway taught to be proud of what you do, to stand behind my actions. I cannot expect everyone to be the same. This is why my full name is below, this is why I am in the phone book, this is why my number is not unlisted.

one positive thing that has come out of this travesty is that a bunch of NYmetros are now posting here. They never did before, defending their actions has caused them to start. I always knew NY was a dog eat dog place, but their actions have demonstrated how true it is.
I just hope you are all proud of yourselves. I know Bob is.
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:07 AM   #922
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Since we haven't heard a peep out of the WBBCI (which I think speaks volumes) I am pretty suspicious regarding the sincerity of this whole backroom deal. In fact, were I a betting man, I would be comfortable with giving 10 to 1 odds that Bob ends up under the bus this winter. At this point the IBT can walk away without losses given they haven't promised anything in public.

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Old 08-31-2010, 10:23 AM   #923
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Originally Posted by sezwho View Post
The Anonymous Sock Puppet Speaks

Nice story and sounds like it could be true.

Is it?

As for Bob, Rodney may be right, or maybe he'll sue the rest of the committee by January.

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Old 08-31-2010, 10:53 AM   #924
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As a first time poster to this tread I have one question then a follow up statement.

Why can't another group of people interested in the same results (reinstating Leo and reforming WBCCI) investigate the filing of another Lawsuit?

It seems to me that my name was not on the first lawsuit, and that the putting a hold on the the first suit does not preclude another group from filing theirs. How about a group from the West Coast who believe in Leo and need for change, lets pull our respective heads out of the sand and really get things going.

Ted Davenport

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