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Old 08-29-2010, 07:01 AM   #883
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A WBCCI Member can get the detail

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
Grand Master are the dates included? Are those legal expenses because of the member driven lawsuit or is it for cease and desist letters and legal fees paid to uphold Leo's expulsion as he tried to present his disallowed defense? I just wanted to be certain we were comparing the same dates and expenses.

Bob we need some concrete numbers and reports and contact numbers here to show and verify our work with the lawsuit. Without facts the situation is becoming confused as 2Air has pointed out.
The detail on those expenses are available to a dues paying WBCCI member, all you have to do is ask JC. That will give you who was paid when.
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:24 AM   #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
it's a simple concept that continues to elude your grasp...



it's really not about positive or negative reasons,

it's ALL about how/when and IF this happened as reported SO FAR.

once again THIS notion (that THEY did anything as reported here)...

assumes the story/events as posted here are an accurate reporting...

unless you personally have confirmed HOW this current position was reached ((with the ibt leaders))...

the POINT is still...

first hand knowledge/confirmation of what happened, how, by who and so on is lacking IN THIS THREAD.

VERIFY what did/not happen in the genesis of this committee and its members...

and YES folks who donated should do this,

rather than trusting to or ACCEPTING the events as reported here.

REread these questions...



then find ANY sources in this thread (or anywhere else) that...

1. directly answer the questions
2. come from ANYone other that the poster in post #791 or ONE DW member.

independent confirmation of the story/events/process/proceedings is NEEDED.

don't rationalize based on a story version that MAY not be complete or accurate.



you do, as does ANY dues pay'n wb' member...

have you contacted ANY ibt leader by mail/phone/online or by way of your unit officers?

the top brass does reply to the underlings, occasionally...

cheers
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Your rather snide sarcasm aside, 2air, this is not beyond my grasp, thank you. My expectations here and view of this are not the same as yours and some of the other posters.

The previous post from last night, with the email from Howie, might answer some of the questions as to what happened, why and how. This info was rather late in coming here, IMO, but I am glad to see this was sent out to contributors before it all became public information.

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Old 08-29-2010, 08:36 AM   #885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
__________________________________________________ __
Who the heck is the president of NY unit and what does that have to do with Defend Wally? Where has she been prior to her letter?
I think it is scandalous that you let a unit take over the individuals lawsuit and handled it yourselves after the money was raised for a lawyer to do it.
Again it isn't winning or losing but how you play the game and the premise was to reinstate Leo and have the lawyer do the talking that was what the MONEY was contributed for even before you were asking for funds... You two, Bob and Howie should be ashamed. Except for a refund remove me from this e-mail list. Shame on you.
________________________________________________

I have today put a stop payment on my check for $200.
I no longer trust you, Mr Novak or any of the other supporters of DW.
You all should be ashamed of yourselves.
__________________________________________________ _____
Thanks for the info, but let me get right to the point. While this new tack might provide some benefits towards reforming the club as it now operates,my primary impetus for donating $100 to the law suit effort was to re-instate Leo G. This part of the effort has mysteriously disappeared from
the action.
I would like to officially request the return of my $100 donation, as I am much less than satisfied with this resolution and Leo and his wife is still' out'
and the powers that perpetrated his 'dismissal' are still 'in'.
Thanks!
__________________________________________________ __________
Spoke with Howie on Friday there was one when checked then, then you, Don and Lew sent the above.

No one else emailed as of this posting.

But you failed to report when you improperly entered Howie's email account is all the replies in support.

Bottom line, the same tiny group keep posting mis statements of fact.

You're all entitled to your opinion but civility aside, and notwithstanding several folk’s emotional state and misstatement of the facts, their approach is/was unwarranted and is counterproductive in any situation where you are attempting to resolve a matter and get to the facts.

I’m not going to try and answer your questions only to be abused and called names, the mods can’t catch all of the junk.

If questions are asked in a civil manor I’ll do my best but will not respond otherwise.


Last point, there is a bylaws thread for questions relating to the committee and it the only place that people have EVER had to suggest what changes in the club they wish to see thru changes in the bylaws.
So many have been complaining about the way things are done in the past with the club ranting does nothing to change the club.

Have you read the rules recently
Be Courteous! ……. what sets us apart from the other boards - we are friendlier, more civil, more insightful, more mature and more fun.
  • Do not engage in personal attacks.Excessive sarcasm, extreme belligerence, insults, extreme anger.
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:42 AM   #886
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Facts

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug&maggie View Post
The previous post from last night, with the email from Howie, might answer some of the questions as to what happened, why and how. This info was rather late in coming here, IMO, but I am glad to see this was sent out to contributors before it all became public information.
It wasn't.
Howie's e-mail came after Michele's announcement here.
Howie copied Michele's announcement and also included a link to this thread in his e-mail.
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:49 AM   #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistral blue View Post
It wasn't.
Howie's e-mail came after Michele's announcement here.
Howie copied Michele's announcement and also included a link to this thread in his e-mail.


Okay, thanks for that clarification. I will then say again, shame on them for not contacting their supporters first. Outrage and feelings of betrayal were eminently predictable.


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Old 08-29-2010, 09:33 AM   #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
...Last point, there is a bylaws thread for questions relating to the committee and it the only place that people have EVER had to suggest what changes in the club they wish to see thru changes in the bylaws...
actually there are SEVERAL older threads with repositories of bylaw suggestions, revisions and ideas...

that were sincerely offered in an effort to improve the club...

seriously, ASKING to have the ideas REposted in a new thread does nothing but delay action.

relatively new wb members (3-5 years in) often somehow ENDUP serving on overwhelmingly complex NEW committees...

with NO REAL POWER to implement change.

this gives the appearance of a PREZ doing something during his/her term...

while wearing OUT the younger/inexperienced clubbers...

and the SAME STUFF happens all over again with the NEXT prez...
___________

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
...So many have been complaining about the way things are done in the past with the club ranting does nothing to change the club...
ranting seems to be the word of the weak, but the simple history IS...

COMMITTEES have none nothing to "change the club" in any substantial way.
____________

as for the new committee...

in one version of it's purpose, it is suggested that...

'changes will be CONSOLIDATED and INCORPORATED into the bylaws'....

while ANOTHER version of the officially stated goals reads...

'strive to detect and eliminate any inconsistency or any ambiguities'...

the latter could be translated into a committee of PROOFREADERS...
__________

the single most important CHANGE in the bylaws is the PRIME DIRECTIVE...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f290...tml#post770583

once the financials are structured to REQUIRE SPENDING all DUES MONEY at the unit level...

everything ELSE will fall into place (and be REwritten) to support that goal.
____________

finding inconsistencies, ambiguities and consolidating the IDEAS for by laws revision...

does not GET ANYTHING MEANINGFUL into the club charter/bylaws...

the required PROCESS to INSERT real changes into the bylaws will ultimately BLOCK revision.

how much will ULTIMATELY make it to a member VOTE?

ZIP/zero.

so once again months will pass with a new set of gyrations...

by a committee (this is the slight of hand distraction)

while the club continues to circle the drain.

and any REAL changes will happen in some other venue...

while most are WATCHING for the committee to post updates.
__________

at least there is ONE POINT of agreement here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
...Bottom line, the same tiny group keep posting mis statements of fact...
now back 2 that point WHO can verify the real chain of events from june2now?

anyone?


cheers
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Old 08-29-2010, 09:34 AM   #889
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STORM THE CASTLE!!!!!!!!*
SOUND THE BUGLE; the troops are in disarray !!!!
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Old 08-29-2010, 10:41 AM   #890
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An e-mail from DW to me!

Hi Don

The goals of Defend Wally have been met.

Perhaps the list of objectives needs to be bifurcated
One. to seek the reinstatement of Leo
Two. changes to the bylaws.
Both of which Metro NY fully supported, putting their money into the fund as well as a number of supporters.

Metro NY collected all donations not DW because it is not a legal.

After the law firm was retained they reviewed the case law finding certain objectives (claims) were not actionable. The balances of the claims were but if litigated successfully would in the best case scenario the Court could Order the club to amend their bylaws.

Ok so we now win the case the club amends the bylaws without any input from plaintiffs.

This process could have dragged on for 2-5+ years, during that time the fund would have been depleted; we would need to raise more money. Not an easy task

So some time in 2012-2015 change would occur? Not the change the committee expects.

Leo would have been reinstated the lawyer was confident of that, not sure if that would occur sooner than 2012-2015 with the rest of the case or thru other legal procedures faster, never finished that scenario.

There was a delay by Leo (about 10 weeks) in getting the needed docs to the lawyer in time to file the suit before the International rally as planned.

If it was filed before the international this outcome would not have happened
When one door closes another opens.

An offer was made Lawyers talked on both sides.

DW/Metro’s attorney felt that a couple of seats on the committee was a better outcome than could ever be achieved in Court in maybe five (2015) years at a cost of $$$$$$.

However, Leo was not included, the lawyer felt confident he could obtain his reinstatement with some sort of probation period but full member rights.

Leo reluctantly agreed the night before the lawyer was going to contact the clubs lawyer.

Early the next morning Leo emailed the lawyer and instructed him not to call.

Leo clearly declined reinstatement.

Defend Wally/Metro NY was asked to nominate two members to the committee for one seat, we sent three.

The DW contributors and Metro obtained a favorable resolution.

We welcome your suggestions as to what or how the bylaws can be changed


DW
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Old 08-29-2010, 10:43 AM   #891
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My response

Hi DW,

Do you have a real name?
Would it be possible to get some straight answers from you?
It's like pulling teeth from a chicken on the lawsuit thread.
FWIW, I have a feeling DW and MetroNY are headed for some serious trouble.

As Bob (LI Pets) said in the lawsuit thread, "DW had a fiduciary duty to its contributors".

That's very true.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that a fiduciary duty was also owed to the members of MetroNY.

But as Bob indicated in the same lawsuit thread, "MetroNY had the largest vested interest in this."
If I remember correctly, DW started the ball rolling and MetroNY joined in later, correct?

At what point did MetroNY swallow DW?

Unfortunately, this is now a clear conflict of interest case.
Acting on behalf of MetroNY at the expense of DW is a classic example of a conflict of interest case resulting in a breach of a fiduciary duty to the contributors of DW.
That's not good!!!
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You indicate that there was in fact a negotiation:
"An offer was made. Lawyers talked on both sides."

Who made the offer?
What was the offer?
Were all of the plaintiffs/contributors notified there was an offer on the table?

You also said, "Defend Wally/Metro NY was asked to nominate two members to the committee for one seat, we sent three."

Which members were sent?
Were all of the plaintiffs/contributors consulted, contacted or otherwise kept in the loop on this?

Please help me out, what exactly are the terms of the negotiated settlement you claim to have obtained?

Thank you,
Don
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Old 08-29-2010, 10:53 AM   #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug&maggie View Post
They chose Bob for a reason, not necessarily for one we would consider positive.


It occurred to me that dissemination of the information being demanded may be an attorney-client privilege problem.
First last, last first: Attorney/client privilege may be a problem. Only the client can waive the privilege. Some question in my mind just who the client(s) is(are). Bob, Defend Wally Committee (is it an amorphous group, or more formal?), Metro NY, all or some of the above? The parties that were involved in the settlement/compromise/deal may have agreed on silence about the process.

As for why one group choses a member of the opposition for a committee—just as a general comment on human nature, doesn't everyone want to hang with people just like themselves?

Who did the committee choosing is another question—it would have to be the product of some sort of negotiation, but no doubt an arcane negotiation. For the negotiators to disclose the process and the stance of all parties might well blow up the deal. Surely there are people outside the negotiating group (and maybe inside) who would love to blow up the deal.

Confidentiality is sometimes the only way a deal can be made. But, those outside are always upset. Those inside will for various reasons want to blab something, and some may. When trust is minimal, and the insiders are attacked by the outsiders, blabbing pressure is high.

If I were the WBCCI leadership and were reading this thread, I would be fairly confident of ultimate victory and that only cosmetic changes have to be made. That belief may well be wrong, or cosmetic changes may keep the peasants with their pitchforks held off for the moment, but the insurrection will continue nonetheless. It begins to look like a morbid battle over who gets to keep Wally's corpse in their personal shrine.

The insurrectionistas should now be planning their next 20 or 30 moves for various scenarios—committee is real, committee isn't real, etc. Storming the castle has a divine simplicity to it, but will not be adequate.

Gene
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Old 08-29-2010, 11:41 AM   #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
It begins to look like a morbid battle over who gets to keep Wally's corpse in their personal shrine.

....... Storming the castle has a divine simplicity to it, but will not be adequate.

Gene

Aww, but storming the castle is fun; all the senseless destruction and mayhem with no accountability. Oh well.

I have concluded that WBCCI really doesn't have a constitution for governance- its a suicide pact. A pact that people who are in a position to break it have no intention whatsoever of doing so.

It is really sad that a camping club could get so discombobulated by side considerations to the point that its very survival is doubtful. Goodwill, and goodwill alone can save the club, but goodwill it seems, just isn't to be found. Selah.
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Old 08-29-2010, 12:14 PM   #894
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Quote:
It occurred to me that dissemination of the information being demanded may be an attorney-client privilege problem...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
...The parties that were involved in the settlement/compromise/deal may have agreed on silence about the process.
and a fine explanation of a/c privilege...

but this train o'thought continues to be based on the assumption that...

negotiations, settlements and "agreements" were reached.

there is still no validation of WHAT actually happened.

it's doubtful ne1 posting here REPRESENTS either party as legal council.

obviously the legal teams might be restricted from clearing this up.

but does anyone HERE really think a binding agreement was drafted and signed?

or that this NONexistent document includes HUSH clauses for the defend/cry team OR wb' bobbleheads ??
_________

i doubt ANY formal agreement was reached,

in fact the very origin and definition of the A word makes this very UNlikely.
_________

the most recent email to m'blue from DW includes more details, but are they true?

and why would his Dear Wife be sending him email on this club nonsense?

_________

i DO favor tossing cows at the castle

and organizing a ministry of funny walks...

fresh ideas 2bsure.
_________

cheers
2air'
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Old 08-29-2010, 01:35 PM   #895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
but does anyone HERE really think a binding agreement was drafted and signed?


i DO favor tossing cows at the castle

and organizing a ministry of funny walks...
There are many possible ways some sort of agreement was reached and memorialized (lawyer talk for written down). There could be letters or e-mails between lawyers with confirmation from various clients or quasiclients, or a simple letter signed by some or all, or even an oral agreement (which no doubt everyone would interpret differently). Something had to be agreed to in some form, or there would not be what is.

Moving on to more important things—

It is the Ministry of Silly Walks and I, for one, believe that it should be part of the WBCCI structure and if so, would make it more likely for me to join such an organization. Rodney could be the Minister in charge so he wouldn't storm the castle and could defend it against flying cows. But, didn't we learn that flinging a cow is not the right thing to do, but flinging a piano is?

Gotta go and return the parrot and pick up a spam egg spam sandwich.

Gene
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Old 08-29-2010, 02:59 PM   #896
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no doubt silly walks is protected by someone and i don't want a CnD letter...

which is why funny walks could be used, mehbe.

i had planned to suggest the ministry of cane, crutch, stroller, wheelchair and quadwalker enabled gimpy walks...

but didn't want to appear to be ranting.

if a quasiclient has a something similar to an engine in their toe vehicle...

is it a quasimotoe ?

cheers
2air'
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