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Old 07-02-2010, 05:29 PM   #631
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Maybe he is basing the total on the IBT X-Treme spending multiplier! Much like hospital and government overcharges... Who'd have guessed they had already spent $29,000 on a few letters and a few hours stalking members across the internet??
what Carol said +1

In fact now having spent ONLY $29,000 to save the club that firm in their eyes is their dream team.

What Defend Wally's legal firm cost is not important nor will that info be disclosed herein.

But typically federal cases costs Defendants more than Plaintiffs especially considering they will have to retain a firm here in NY.

Then what usually happens is they will bounce everything back to the Ohio team at $400 an hour because they know them for a long period of time just to confirm or get a second opinion on their NY lawyer actions/opinions.

So at $800 an hour they can save the club again from those mean plaintiff's.
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Old 07-02-2010, 05:39 PM   #632
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They can't hep it -- they were born with membership funds in their pockets!

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They spend money like "Trust fund babies" and who ever they hire can sense it and bills them accordingly.

Said another way they set themselves up to get ripped off be it forums, ad agency's, event contracts etc.
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Old 07-02-2010, 06:16 PM   #633
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They spend money like "Trust fund babies" and who ever they hire can sense it and bills them accordingly.

Said another way they set themselves up to get ripped off be it forums, ad agency's, event contracts etc.
They are like politicians, it's real easy to spend money when it comes out of somebody else's pocket.

Cheers, Dan
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Old 07-03-2010, 08:14 AM   #634
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what Carol said +1

In fact now having spent ONLY $29,000 to save the club that firm in their eyes is their dream team.

What Defend Wally's legal firm cost is not important nor will that info be disclosed herein.

But typically federal cases costs Defendants more than Plaintiffs especially considering they will have to retain a firm here in NY.

Then what usually happens is they will bounce everything back to the Ohio team at $400 an hour because they know them for a long period of time just to confirm or get a second opinion on their NY lawyer actions/opinions.

So at $800 an hour they can save the club again from those mean plaintiff's.
Or, they may have insurance that covers these fees once a lawsuit is filed, and WBCCI funds will not be depleted and thus destroy the club.

Maggie
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Old 07-03-2010, 11:30 AM   #635
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Or, they may have insurance that covers these fees once a lawsuit is filed, and WBCCI funds will not be depleted and thus destroy the club.

Maggie
I imagine the defense, whether of the WBCCI or individual officers, will be covered by insurance, and that may be a good thing for both the plaintiffs and the defendants.

First, obviously, insurance will keep the case from being mooted by the bankruptcy of the WBCCI from legal expenses. There’s no gain in “destroying WBCCI in order to save it.”

Second, insurance companies are bottom line oriented and not inclined to spend any more money than they have to. My old family lawyer (since passed on) was on retainer from a large insurance company. He commented that they were a great client to have, but frustrating from the standpoint they would settle any claim, no matter how frivolous, rather than spend the money to litigate it.

It won’t take long for the insurance company to figure out that the plaintiffs have a pretty good case, and that all they’re really defending is the egos of the club’s upper echelons. Insurance companies don’t assign a very large value to egos, and will press hard for a negotiated settlement or binding arbitration. And I think unbiased arbitration would very likely result in some enormously positive changes in the way the WBCCI is run. Like eliminating the “disharmony” clause as a basis for disciplinary action, and opening up the election process.

That won’t solve the clubs problems, but it might render them less insoluble.
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Old 07-03-2010, 04:36 PM   #636
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In Federal Court there is a requirement "Initial Disclosures" it is there that they need to state if they have or not.
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Old 07-04-2010, 04:03 PM   #637
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Litigation Insurance

My understanding is that litigation insurance comes into play only after a lawsuit has been successfully defended with the defendants own cash.
Please don't hold me to this I just am not sure about this.
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Old 07-04-2010, 10:57 PM   #638
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My understanding is that litigation insurance comes into play only after a lawsuit has been successfully defended with the defendants own cash.
Please don't hold me to this I just am not sure about this.
Presuming the WBCCI has D&O/E&O Coverage. Once the suit is filed the carrier will take over defense and the costs involved.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:06 AM   #639
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Presuming the WBCCI has D&O/E&O Coverage. Once the suit is filed the carrier will take over defense and the costs involved.
Thank you. That's also my understanding of lawsuit insurance.


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Old 07-05-2010, 04:56 PM   #640
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It appears that the threat of a lawsuit has encouraged the IBT to propose a balanced budget.

Jim
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:56 PM   #641
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Presuming the WBCCI has D&O/E&O Coverage. Once the suit is filed the carrier will take over defense and the costs involved.
Not necessarily, if the coverage exists, the insurance co will review the Complaint first, they will not pay for all acts.

Most D&O policies do not impose a duty to defend on the insurer. They do, however, provide coverage for defense costs and give the insurer the right to associate with the defense and approve defense strategies, expenditures, and settlements.

Many of the issues affecting coverage cannot be resolved until the claim has been resolved. Specifically, certain exclusions only apply after a finding of fact has been made. For example, policies generally exclude coverage for losses arising out of conspiracy. The exclusion only applies, however, where there is a final judgment finding conspiracy. Thus, where conspiracy is alleged, coverage is uncertain until the completion of the claim. In such situations, insurers may have an interest in not advancing defense costs until coverage is certain.

Joe is also correct some policy's are drafted as reimbursement policies.

All is this conversation is moot, if they have it great, if they don't they have the cash.

Based on their lack of business experience and being a club, it is more likely they don't have it.

We'll find out soon.




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Old 07-05-2010, 09:03 PM   #642
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Not necessarily, if the coverage exists, the insurance co will review the Complaint first, they will not pay for all acts.
No policy pays for all acts but surely some portion of the complaint will be viewed by the carrier as being a potential actionable coverage and that will trigger defense.

Most D&O policies do not impose a duty to defend on the insurer. Then you need a new D&O carrier - defense is included until such point that there is no possibility of a covered cause of loss. They do, however, provide coverage for defense costs and give the insurer the right to associate with the defense and approve defense strategies, expenditures, and settlements.

Many of the issues affecting coverage cannot be resolved until the claim has been resolved. Specifically, certain exclusions only apply after a finding of fact has been made. See above. For example, policies generally exclude coverage for losses arising out of conspiracy. The exclusion only applies, however, where there is a final judgment finding conspiracy. Thus, where conspiracy is alleged, coverage is uncertain until the completion of the claim. In such situations, insurers may have an interest in not advancing defense costs until coverage is certain. See above.

Joe is also correct some policy's are drafted as reimbursement policies.
Anything is possible in our industry - I suppose through some, as we call it, Shifting Sands Mutual substandard carrier. In 32 years at this I've never seen such a beast.

All is this conversation is moot, if they have it great, if they don't they have the cash. Agreed but the speculation versus facts confuses those who may read this thread. It encourages people to believe more may come of this than, my guess is, even the active participants in the suit hope to accomplish.

Based on their lack of business experience and being a club, it is more likely they don't have it.

We'll find out soon. I have no opinion on this suit and have expressed none. Everyone has to find their own path. It will be interesting to see the results and if the WBCCI plays the card I think they will.

.
(Disclaimer -the opinions I've expressed here are my own and may have involved speculation in response to what was viewed as speculation by others).
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Old 07-06-2010, 06:50 PM   #643
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I'm really TRYING to remain positive

Sometimes I think I'm just TRYING.

About half a century ago I read Winston S. Churchill's "History of the English Speaking Peoples". A few fragments remain. One was about Oliver Cromwell, who wanted to rule with the consent of the people... but asked after repeated failures to pack a compliant Parliament, "Where can I find consent?"

The IBT wants "consent" in roughly the same sense that Cromwell did.
The good news is that England survived Cromwell - and over Cromwell's dead body they invited Charles II to come back and reign. (Not rule, but reign.) There may always be an England... but the WBCCI?

I've honored my pledge and am supporting the lawsuit, because I want to put my money where my mouth is... However it seems to me that the only thing that will really get the IBT to snap into reality is to lose 1000 members in a single year. SO - I have my WBCCI membership card taped to the inside of my Airstream door.

Every day I look at it. Every day I ask myself how I'm going to "vote" come renewal time.
  1. I still work, I won't be a "caravanner" anytime in the near future.
  2. I am not afraid to spend money, but I like to get good value for what I spend. In high school one of the cool kids wanted me to do his homework for the year so he could stay on the football team - implying that I'd become "cool" because he'd date me. I didn't buy that story when I was 14. Now? Different clique - same story - still smells of rotten fish.
  3. I am willing to pay sales people commissions for growing our busniess - but anyone with three MONTHS of negative growth is going be looking for another Job. The much subsidized leadership of WBCCI has been leading us downward for how long?
  4. The Japanese lost many, many men in WWII because they didn't believe in retreat or even have the command in their book. They finally came up with the command "Advance to the Rear". Apropos WBCCI - there is the description of IBT leadership in a nutshell.
Reality Check.
  • A balanced budget? Well a stick or two got expelled from a behind or two didn't it? It is something.
  • I feel like the WBCCI is in the emergency room bleeding out - and the IBT is debating whether they should use Littlest Mermaid bandaids or Toy Story bandaids.... when the situation calls for the crash cart and six units of O Neg.
  • I want to care. But the IBT is still in denial that the club IS in the E/R bleeding out. By the time they call for the crash cart the body will already be in rigor - and the organs won't even be suitable for harvesting.
the decision keeps sliding toward writing an elegant epistle to every member of IBT and wishing them well - but by Allah - not with my money!

(by Allah - just to tick them off)

Give me reason to believe.....

Paula
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Old 07-06-2010, 07:01 PM   #644
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Gary has got it right. Some additional general thoughts, and the disclaimer that laws vary by state and insurance policies can differ.

D&O (Directors and Officers) protects them. Corporate liability protects the corporation. The policies may or may not be combined. It would unusual and probably never has happened, that an insurance company would insure against intentional acts—conspiracy would be one—or criminal acts. But if the complaint alleges something they insure against (negligence for example), they have a duty to defend against the other claims as well. They would not have to pay the portion of an award for parts of the suit they have not insured against, but are responsible for all defense costs. What is "intentional" is something that lawyers and judges can argue about endlessly. You can be covered for negligence, stupidity or carelessness.

Once you are served with papers, or have knowledge you will have a claim filed against you, you have a duty to inform the insurance company. If you don't do so in a timely manner, they can refuse coverage. Meanwhile, while they are deciding what to do, you may have retained lawyers. Once the insurance company decides to defend you, they may (1) pay your lawyers for the defense and reimburse for past defense, or (2) use house counsel who are salaried and may or may not be all that good, or (3) hire independent local counsel who have a long standing contractual relationship with the company. Since the WBCCI has had plenty of notice of a potential lawsuit, I presume they have contacted their insurer. Lawyers for them should be reading every word on this Forum that has anything to do with a lawsuit and all the posts by the likely plaintiffs. It is possible the WBCCI doesn't have insurance, but unlikely.

Insurance companies want to get the lawsuit over before legal costs mount up. The defendant may want to argue the case for all time, but if they don't do what the insurance company says, they could lose coverage or have to pay a large part of the award themselves—if there is a claim for money.

I'm unsure what the prospective plaintiffs are up to and think that money may not be involved from the corporation, but maybe from the directors and officers. Shareholders' derivative suits against for-profit corporations often involve a lot of money, but this is a nonprofit and I don't think a court would award money to plaintiffs in a members' derivative suit. If the directors and officers were told to repay some expenses they received, that would go to the corporation, not the members.

The interests of each director and each officer and the corporation may all be different. Each may end up with their own lawyer. Nothing like a score of lawyers trying to sort out things. The lawyers generally know what's going on and just want to find a way to resolve the case. The parties may want to fight and lose sight of reality—for them a lawsuit is therapy—and some lawyers get emotionally involved or need the money, and do not follow established ethical rules of the profession. That doesn't happen very often. More often there are genuine differences of legal opinion and that can take some time to sort out. For what it's worth, I was sued almost 2 years ago in a nuisance lawsuit looking to bring in as many people as possible as well as a nonprofit corporation I was involved with. My homeowners' policy covered it, but many homeowners' policies no longer cover much outside of the home itself. It was a pain, but I didn't have to pay anything except the emotional costs. One of the plaintiff's lawyers was suspended during the time this was going on for an unrelated problem. This was the kind of lawsuit that every other lawyer involved was disgusted with. It does happen.

To a large part the insurance company controls the defendants' case. The plaintiffs' lawyer has to keep the plaintiffs rational, not always a simple matter. The judge tries to keep everyone on track and will try to push both sides toward a settlement. Trials are rare.

One other thing—I haven't had to deal with federal jurisdictional issues for a very long time, but it appears this case may be filed in a federal District Court in NY. That seems unusual for this type of case unless there is a specific federal statute giving the federal court jurisdiction. I would think this type of case would be filed in the state court where the WBCCI is headquartered or incorporated or where an officer or director lives. I think a federal judge if he has any discretion would try to get rid of this case by sending it to a state court.

Gene
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