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Old 03-02-2010, 10:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I think what we would to have besides your support, is events or circumstances that you feel are or have being done incorrectly by the board or others members that should be brought to our attention.
Either in this thread or PM us.

This input would help our legal team.

For example one member PM'd me with this comment, (yes I have his permission to post it)

Board membersaccepting benefits unavailable to the general membership from outside corporations and/or companies and failing to report resulting conflict of interests to the membership (e.g. deep discounts on the purchase of Airstream RV products and/or services, free use of Airstream products for family members, etc.)"

IRS isn't reading this thread are they?
Moreover, is the club risking their non profit status?


.
Those things are difficult to prove, unless you have the proverbial smoking gun.

Bill
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:14 PM   #30
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I can understand Leo filing a writ because the IBT did not follow it's published rules and procedures.

I can't understand the logic of suing the WBCCI.

However in the end IMHO no one will win but the lawyers and all parties will be worse off financially and some emotionally.

Since you will be working from the short stack of cash. A few bucks up front to determine if you have a valid case or not could save you much grief and money later.
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:18 PM   #31
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Since you will be working from the short stack of cash. A few bucks up front to determine if you have a valid case or not could save you much grief and money later.
Please give us credit not to launch the ship without checking to see if the tide was in.
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:19 PM   #32
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I don't think it's the winning that is the impetus of most who are interested in persuing this action. There would be no shame in losing. The real shame is in looking the other way and taking no note of what are serious infractions that damage all members' rights and the perceived value and heritage of the WBCCI. Legal recourse is a respectable and responsible method to address issues that can not be arbitrated through normal channels of communication.
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:30 PM   #33
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Those things are difficult to prove, unless you have the proverbial smoking gun.
You prove it by testimony under oath and other evidence.
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:35 PM   #34
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I can't understand the logic of suing the WBCCI.
I can't understand the logic of how the board keeps loosing over 100K a year for several years.

How do you suggest to address that issue?
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:38 PM   #35
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Please give us credit not to launch the ship without checking to see if the tide was in.
No offense meant but during the 22 years I spent in courtrooms two phrases were heard more than once every day.

1, "I didn't do it."

2, "It's not the money. It's the priciple."

It usually didn't end well for either group.
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:45 PM   #36
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I can't understand the logic of how the board keeps loosing over 100K a year for several years.

How do you suggest to address that issue?
I too am stunned by the mismanagement of the club. I subscribe to the subvert from within theory. Work our way up the ladder changing things as we go. This current batch won't last forever.

I know that some don't want to wait that long but to each their own.
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:48 PM   #37
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They only nominate like minded people to replace them, they are several years out with that plan.

Leo tried for 4 years to climb that ladder, he wasn't one of the good 'ol boys

see what that does.
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Old 03-02-2010, 11:12 PM   #38
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They only nominate like minded people to replace them, they are several years out with that plan.

Leo tried for 4 years to climb that ladder, he wasn't one of the good 'ol boys

see what that does.
Of course. Human nature is what it is. You are drawn to your own kind. There are fortunately others already in the "pipeline" who from the outside fit their mold.

Sadly the main problem is that many of the folks who have the logical ideas that would turn this club from a slowly sinking ship into an America's cup contender don't run for Unit and then Region offices and beyond.

They have excuses of course. "I don't have the time." "I work for a living and I just want to go camping." etc. excuses and apathy will kill this club and I don't think a lawsuit will revive it.

So I'll continue to subvert from within and support others who are doing the same. My bet says with a little effort we can be running this club in six or seven years. I know too long for many but worth the effort for me to save the club.
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:36 AM   #39
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This is not about Leo's reinstatment

Over nite I had 3 Pm's asking why we don't sue to just get Leo back in why are we going after the WBCCI.

If 3 people asked many more may be thinking the same, so I'll address that issue.

The expulsion is the cumulation of Leos efforts to affect change in the WBCCI. Mere reinstatement does nothing but put him back in the exact same position he was in just 60 days ago.

Nuisance grievances will start right up again because hes not letting failing leadership off the hook for not taking care of our business.


Getting reinstated by proving that they were clueless in following their own procedures doesn't fix anything with regards to our club's operations. How long will it take them to expel him again for doing exactly what hes committed to doing? Do we go back to court in a few months?

The only way to fix this, is to challenge leadership in each and every area that has brought us to this point such as.
Discrimination against members (a closed election system). Discriminating against members voting rights.
Intentionally withholding important documents and issues from the membership (motions and budget details coming before the IBT meetings).
Fighting for member's rights to affect and control each of these issues.
The deficit spending created by financing leadership's travel expenses doing the annual Great North American Tour.

These folks serve us, we do not serve them.

We're shopping for a list of ideas from the membership to consider. We need to make sure we've got it all covered. Some items our attorneys will tell us the courts can address others they won't be able to.

Nobody is attacking the WBCCI on any level. It's management that we're after, their make-it-up-as-you-go-along 'established customs.'

Where the IP, and/or the EC7 simply makes up what suits them best in the moment.
How dare they lose $146,000.00 of membership funds in a single year? That is absolutely worth standing up against!

We seek to give the membership open, free, and fair elections next year? Voting rights? Bring fiscal responsibility back to leadership?

The point isn't so much to be reinstated, that's not worth a dime of the membership's money. The point is to set management straight as to what their responsibilities are what their actions can and cannot be.

They're out of control; we need to get this club modernized and growing again.
Nobody wants to see the club have to spend $25-$50K defending itself in the courts, but what's the alternative, watching them flush another $150K of membership funds, annually?
How long will the WBCCI last under those conditions?

We can't go forward without pledges for $7500. Leos pledged all of his time, plus $500. Others have pledged over $3,000



We're half way there.




Whether we go forward with this or not, is up to current and past members.









.


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Old 03-03-2010, 08:49 AM   #40
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I just have to say something about this, although have been waiting for Crawford Gene to weigh in with better information.

Lawsuits have to have at their foundation a cause of action that can be filed in State or Federal court, in a complaint prepared by attorneys willing to take the case. This would not be a criminal case, but civil, I believe. Criminal cases are filed by State's Attorneys, Attorneys General, etc., and require identification of criminal laws that have been willfully broken, I believe.

Anger and upset by numerous members, over perceived or actual mismanagement and misguided direction of a private club, may not rise to the level of a case that can be written into a complaint and taken into court. These things are carefully defined by state and federal government, and then more narrowly defined through case law at all levels.

Lawsuits are very, very expensive for plaintiffs as well as defendants, with attorney fees, filing costs, etc., having to be met along the way regardless of eventual outcome. Thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, before you even get near a courtroom.

We have our issues with the WBCCI, which we have stated elsewhere and will not state again, and we are sympathetic to individuals who have perhaps been wrongfully placed on the piercing end of the sword. I would also like to state that we all have the right to our opinions and perspectives about issues publicly posted here, members of the WBCCI or not.

I do think it is premature and highly inflammatory to be putting something like a lawsuit against the WBCCI out there on these Forums, and soliciting anywhere pledges for contributions to fund it. People can get very caught up in the emotionality of it all, and it can be even more polarizing than what we are already seeing here.

Gene, are you out there?

Maggie
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:06 AM   #41
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Quote:
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Lawsuits have to have at their foundation a cause of action that can be filed in State or Federal court, in a complaint prepared by attorneys willing to take the case. This would not be a criminal case, but civil, I believe.

Anger and upset by numerous members, over perceived or actual mismanagement and misguided direction of a private club, may not rise to the level of a case that can be written into a complaint and taken into court. These things are carefully defined by state and federal government, and then more narrowly defined through case law at all levels.
First of all we are going to Federal not State Court, yes it is a civil action.
We have run this by our legal team long before we decided to move forward, there is substantial case law which I will not disclose in a forum where the WBCCI could see it.

Quote:
Thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, before you even get near a courtroom.
That's not correct.

What about the Thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars wasted by the WBCCI board in the last few years? almost a half a million dollars.

And they still want their travel expenses over 100K a year, is that ok with you?

Quote:
I would also like to state that we all have the right to our opinions and perspectives about issues publicly posted here, members of the WBCCI or not.
Absolutely, the basis of the entire problem with the WBCCI is their desire to muzzle anyone that has a differing opinion or exposes their short falls.

Say what's on your mind that's why this is called a forum an exchange of ideas!!!!

Quote:
I do think it is premature and highly inflammatory to be putting something like a lawsuit against the WBCCI out there on these Forums....
Premature? Leo and others have been working on CHANGE for over 4 years, how is it when if we wait there will be no club left at the present burn rate of our dues and membership itself, I respectfully disagree.

That's one of primary purposes of this "WBCCI Forum" on Air Forums.
Are you suggesting we post this on the Club web site?

It is sooo over moderated it would be deleted in a NY minute.

So Maggie I have to ask you a question, what's your solution or are you happy as a clam?
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:26 AM   #42
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The Club Forum

I had a pm asking if there's anything that can be done in Court about the WBCCI Club forum.

Member blocking
miserable user hack.

Tim is willing to join as a plaintiff for his grievance being denied about that hack and the activities of the operator.

More importantly there may be libility on the clubs part due to a non-profit IRS status by having direct participation with a members for profit business selling Airstreams on a Club web site and appearing to be the sponsor of the forum.

We have not yet run that issue by our Lawyers.

But we will.


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