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Old 05-06-2010, 02:51 PM   #393
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How about we also try this. That same clear concise message can be sent by each of us to all of our friends and they in turn can send the message to their WBCCI friends and perhaps we will reach even more members that don't frequent the WBCCI forums. And too remind your friends and contacts to include those they know that do not have internet. This is an initative every one can have a share in. Being encouraged by the NY unit coming out in full support is a testament to perseverence and very encouraging. Getting entire units onboard is the way to catapult changes through this stranglehold of obstruction. Paul are you a good writer? The more messages and people working on this the better and the more informed the greater part of the general membership becomes. Let's not put all our eggs in one basket or forum. Much can be done. Telephoning, now that is something I had the pleasure of engaging in with others of WBCCI and something each member could consider. Start spreading the news...New York, New York!

Wheelinterested::: EXCELLENT SUGGESTION, whenever such letter is drafted for the masses, please send, my finger is set-on "Reply All."
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Old 05-06-2010, 03:17 PM   #394
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I'm done playing tag with him, I set Twink to ignore, suggest others do the same.
Yeah, me too. I knew a guy like this in grade school. Push, push, push - then complain to the teacher when you pushed back.

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Old 05-07-2010, 12:10 AM   #395
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You need to cite stuff than is less than 10 years old, also see cda 230

I've litigated this area of law in Federal court this year, you're incorrect as to the way the 2nd circuit will act.

And this case will be in that circuit.
You've piqued my morbid professional curiosity - which is the main reason I follow this thread.

First I'll admit that I've not worked for a carrier that provides Cyber Liability for 5 years but, I fail to see how CDA 230 applies as it appears you meant it in reference to the previous post.

The apparently now "old" training that we had pretty much followed these basic definitions/thoughts on 230:

Congress, however, wanted sites to be able to preserve "family-friendly" content by policing their postings, and to have the option to respond intelligently to complaints -- by reading the relevant posting and then deciding whether to de-post it depending on whether it violated the site's policies.

Thus, § 230 of the CDA protects ISPs and online forums from undeserved liability due to third party actions. The United States District Court for the District of Columbia observed:

In recognition of the speed with which information may be disseminated and the near impossibility of regulating information content, Congress decided not to treat providers of interactive computer services like other information providers such as newspapers, magazines, or television and radio stations, all of which may be held liable for publishing or distributing obscene or defamatory material written or prepared by others.

230 as I understood it "primarily" protects sites from FAILING TO REMOVE but does not prevent them from do so. If that were not the case, then Airforums would not be able to delete posts they find objectionable - which they do all the time.

Not asking you to take the time to teach a class - if you could just point me in right direction it would be appreciated.....
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:11 AM   #396
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Gary,

To the best of my knowledge, Bob isn't an attorney. I believe that when he says he's "litigated" a case, he means he was a party in the litigation, not the litigator. If I'm wrong, Bob, I apologize... but please forgive me if I require your C.V. and bar license information before I eat crow.

By the way, Gary, you are correct. From the EFF:

"By its plain language, § 230 creates a federal immunity to any cause of action that would make service providers liable for information originating with a third-party user of the service”. Zeran v. America Online, Inc., 129 F.3d 327, 330 (4th Cir. 1997), cert. denied, 524 U.S. 937 (1998)

Also from the EFF:

"Section 230 of Title 47 of the United States Code (47 U.S.C. § 230 (United States Code: Title 47,230. Protection for private blocking and screening of offensive material | LII / Legal Information Institute)) was passed as part of the much-maligned Communication Decency Act of 1996. Many aspects of the CDA were unconstitutional restrictions of freedom of speech, but this section (230) survived and has been a valuable defense for Internet intermediaries ever since."

Also from the EFF:

"Can my commenters sue me for editing or deleting their comments on my blog?

Generally no, if you are not the government. Section 230 protect a blog host from liability for “any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected.” This would include editing or deleting posts you consider objectionable, even if those posts would be protected by the First Amendment against government censorship."

There is a good faith element in the statute. Put simply, for Bob et al to have any legal recourse against the WBCCI, they would need to demonstrate mala fides, i.e., bad faith. It's easy to claim another party has acted in bad faith, but it is generally hard to prove. For example, let's say the moderators at the WBCCI forum delete Bob's post. The deletion is not evidence of bad faith. There would have to be a "smoking gun," something along the lines of emails (admissible) proving that the moderators had improper motives. In a private venue, deference is given to the publisher, not the writer. Of all of the possible legal claims against the WBCCI, I think how they run their forum is probably the weakest.
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:52 AM   #397
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Gary,

To the best of my knowledge, Bob isn't an attorney. I believe that when he says he's "litigated" a case, he means he was a party in the litigation, not the litigator. If I'm wrong, Bob, I apologize... but please forgive me if I require your C.V. and bar license information before I eat crow.
You correct and incorrect


Quote:
Of all of the possible legal claims against the WBCCI, I think how they run their forum is probably the weakest.
Weakest no. It is well documented by one of the plaintiffs, but I will not discuss the details due to the pending litigation on that point.

Courts in the United States have upheld Section 230 immunity in a variety of factual contexts and on numerous legal theories.
However, Plaintiffs can successfully set aside CDA 230 Immunity in cases that allege that a website is an "Information/Internet Content Provider," or "Information/Internet Content Facilitator" with respect to the information at issue…..has reason to know, or anticipate, that at least some of the postings on their website are defamatory, false, anonymous, annoying, or harassing in nature, then they will be considered a co-author of the defamatory, false, anonymous, annoying, or harassing postings, and just as liable as the original poster, losing their CDA 230 immunity completely, and be subject to full monetary, legal, and equitable damages by an aggrieved party.

This also goes for website owners who edit even slightly, or alter the defamatory, false, anonymous, annoying, or harassing material by purposely indexing the postings to search engines, or in some way altering the keywords or metatags on those postings to boost their search engine visibility, because they then become "co-authors" or "facilitators" of those defamatory, annoying, harassing, threatening, or anonymous website postings, and can not claim that they are merely providers of an internet service that is immunized by CDA 230.

Fair Housing Council of San Fernando Valley v. Roommates.com

MCW, Inc. v. badbusinessbureau.com


there are other better cases but the WBCCI lawyers R following this thread ,

but they can use WestLaw as well as myself.


IMO the IBT must be buzzing like crazy knowing that the lawsuit is not a threat, they must be in the holy s#$% mode.


They also have Leo's appeal coming up the beginning of June.
My guess is they don't want him at the rally so a decision will be sent afterwards.



With the Complaint hopefully being filed/served long before the International the end of June.
I can't imagine the attendees will be talking about anything other than this litigation.


Too bad the feckless committee that selects the site locations doesn't realize where the center of the US is.
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Old 05-07-2010, 11:43 AM   #398
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I think, Bob, that you are underestimating them by thinking they are at all fearful or intimidated in any way.

Also, you continue to telegraph the supposed strategy here...........incredible, IMO.

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Old 05-07-2010, 11:55 AM   #399
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Wheelinterested::: EXCELLENT SUGGESTION, whenever such letter is drafted for the masses, please send, my finger is set-on "Reply All."
Super! I am looking for an e-mail now if there is one already drafted, or I am hoping someone may draft one here. I will see to it that that trigger finger of yours doesn't go unexercised. We don't want any wasted energy.
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Old 05-07-2010, 12:14 PM   #400
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I think, Bob, that you are underestimating them by thinking they are at all fearful or intimidated in any way.
Intimated no!

They R very concerned, they would be remiss if they weren't.

Any defendant facing a Federal Court action is.

The reality will sink in real quick when the process server knocks.

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Old 05-07-2010, 12:36 PM   #401
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Maggie,

I'm pretty sure Bob isn't an attorney, or at the very least, a litigator. I can't imagine any competent attorney discussing a potential or pending case on an Internet forum. All of the litigators I know would be--let's just say "unenthused"--about having a client posting about the case on a public forum.

As for "strategy," with the rules of discovery in a civil trial, there are very few "Perry Mason" moments. Both the defendants and plaintiffs have an opportunity to see the evidence the other side intends to use in the case. Both sides have an opportunity to depose witnesses. The depositions are transcribed and studied carefully. First things first, though, someone has to file the complaint. Once filed, it is a matter of public record so I'm sure someone will post it. The complaint is likely to lay out the bones of the case, but skimp on the details. The details will be filled in by the pre-trial process. By the time the trial opens--presuming competent counsel and that the matter survives motions--both sides will have a pretty good idea what the strategies are.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but until the legal matter is resolved I'm guessing "Judge Bob" is going to pronounce, in James Earl Jones-esque tones, that the court is going to cut through the IBT like a hot knife through vulkem. In reality, no one really knows what a court is going to do in any given case. This is why most competent (and honest) lawyers advocate for a settlement. A reasonable and certain compromise is almost always better than a roll of judicial dice.

As for the IBT, I think they are full blown Alfred E. Neuman, What, Me Worry? At first blush, this is an internal squabble in a social club. The IBT presumably has D&O insurance and a general liability carrier. They also have a good chunk of change in the bank. The attorneys for the WBCCI can go the "land war in Asia" route, forcing the plaintiffs to spend tens of thousands of dollars. If the trial doesn't go the way they want, they appeal. Getting a real final decision could be years away.

Let's be real. If losing money and members over the past decade hasn't phased the IBT, why would a lawsuit bother them? I'm sure their lawyers will be almost as confident as Bob.
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:15 PM   #402
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Maggie,

I'm pretty sure Bob isn't an attorney, or at the very least, a litigator. I can't imagine any competent attorney discussing a potential or pending case on an Internet forum. All of the litigators I know would be--let's just say "unenthused"--about having a client posting about the case on a public forum.

As for "strategy," with the rules of discovery in a civil trial, there are very few "Perry Mason" moments. Both the defendants and plaintiffs have an opportunity to see the evidence the other side intends to use in the case. Both sides have an opportunity to depose witnesses. The depositions are transcribed and studied carefully. First things first, though, someone has to file the complaint. Once filed, it is a matter of public record so I'm sure someone will post it. The complaint is likely to lay out the bones of the case, but skimp on the details. The details will be filled in by the pre-trial process. By the time the trial opens--presuming competent counsel and that the matter survives motions--both sides will have a pretty good idea what the strategies are.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but until the legal matter is resolved I'm guessing "Judge Bob" is going to pronounce, in James Earl Jones-esque tones, that the court is going to cut through the IBT like a hot knife through vulkem. In reality, no one really knows what a court is going to do in any given case. This is why most competent (and honest) lawyers advocate for a settlement. A reasonable and certain compromise is almost always better than a roll of judicial dice.

As for the IBT, I think they are full blown Alfred E. Neuman, What, Me Worry? At first blush, this is an internal squabble in a social club. The IBT presumably has D&O insurance and a general liability carrier. They also have a good chunk of change in the bank. The attorneys for the WBCCI can go the "land war in Asia" route, forcing the plaintiffs to spend tens of thousands of dollars. If the trial doesn't go the way they want, they appeal. Getting a real final decision could be years away.

Let's be real. If losing money and members over the past decade hasn't phased the IBT, why would a lawsuit bother them? I'm sure their lawyers will be almost as confident as Bob.
It just doesn't get much more sound than this well thought out, articulate post from someone who actually knows what they're talking about IMHO. Excellent points about the reality that is being faced.

...and the new theme music for this.....

YouTube - Dave Matthews Band - Ants Marching (Central Park)
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:39 PM   #403
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I think's Bob's profession was stated much earlier in this thread or maybe another, not a lawyer, but knowledgeable as he works with them in federal cases. Maybe my memory is faulty.

The Complaint may be sparse on details or not, depending on whether the attorney wants to disclose things early for some perceived advantage, whether the law in a specific area requires more detail to get past a motion to dismiss, and maybe whether the attorney is blowing smoke. Just what you put in a complaint is changing due to some recent federal procedural law decisions and we will be seeing more detail in complaints.

Whether the aggrieved should be posting so much info on a website is an interesting question. It can be part of campaign to influence some WBCCI members and unit, a well thought out strategy backed by their lawyers, or a need to express themselves. Nonetheless, lawyers do get nervous that clients will disclose damaging material even though the client believes he is acting from the best of intentions. In my experience it can be very difficult with some clients to keep them quiet and at some point they will do or say something to destroy their case; when they did that I figured they had a psychological need to lose and no one could save them from themselves. I am not saying that is happening here, but I am illustrating why lawyers are afraid what a client will say. There's a lot of feints, misdirections, verbal flatulence and ego in a litigation strategy. Part of lawyering is understanding that and working it. It's very political and can be fun.

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Old 05-07-2010, 01:43 PM   #404
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Old 05-07-2010, 02:28 PM   #405
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...and the new theme music for this.....
Concerts on the big lawn... now we're talking.

I've been lucky enough to attend many, many great concerts here, including Simon & Garfunkel (30 freakin' years ago!?!) This one was right up there without a doubt. Fantastic vibe. 9/11 still very fresh in everyone's consciousness. This vid from the same concert, however, might be more appropriate to the mess we have here though.

YouTube - Dave Matthews Band f/ Warren Haynes - Cortez the Killer (Neil Young Cover) - Live at Central Park

Thanks Twink!
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Old 05-07-2010, 03:13 PM   #406
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Attorney or not an attorney is not the issue at all

I'm pretty sure Bob isn't an attorney, or at the very least, a litigator. I can't imagine any competent attorney discussing a potential or pending case on an Internet forum. All of the litigators I know would be--let's just say "unenthused"--about having a client posting about the case on a public forum.

You guys are pretty shallow in your "well thought out articulate" compliments to one another.
Bob is having a ball. He is not in this by himself at all.
Bob is not the client what are you guys talking about?
If you think that the leadership is caviler and not concerned at all about this issue I believe you are very very wrong.
Fact: Leadership of WBCCI recently had an informal meeting to discuss the going's on and they are very concerned.

Fact: Some Past International Presidents of WBCCI are not going to attend the upcoming "International" some may call that BOYCOTTING. Can you guess why?

Remember folks, Bob is helping you and others along with understanding the process. Many don't understand the legal process. He has done a great job in my opinion in helping us along with understanding what is coming up.

Your continued attacks upon him are making you sound more and more like cry babies that want so bad to be heard! What is with you guys. Do you just like to feed your egos and feed each other or are you concerned about trying to save WBCCI?
Since others have not said it yet. Bob - thank you for your time and effort and I appreciate your keeping us informed with the upcoming litigation.
Thanks again Bob.
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