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Old 05-05-2010, 11:58 AM   #337
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I voted with my dues. Told our unit (WDCU) via our president that we would no renew or WBCCI membership.
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:07 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
I don't understand how a lawsuit is going to change the way people move up in the leadership—an election system that is based on promoting people according to lengthy experience and a nominating committee controlled by the leadership do not seem to me to be per se against the law. It takes a political campaign over the long haul to change the system.

It takes an attentive and strong membership to keep any organization democratic.
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No one has ever voiced and thoughts of changing the progression up through the ranks. There is nothing wrong with that and it serves the Club well to have experienced individuals coming along. That part of the election system that has to be changed is the method of entering the progression. As long as there is only a single slate of hand picked successors presented to the membership nothing will ever change. The intent of the suit is to brake the strangle hold that deigns nominations to any office other than those presented by the nomination committee.

When an individual has presented his partition to run for an office, within the time frame set forth in the constitution, and paid, out of pocket, the $400.00 to have an add placed in the Blue Berte only to have it denied by some "Feckless" self appointed censor everyone should begin to question the system.

This is not a coup, revolution, takeover, or overthrow. No one here is seeking power. We are seeking the return of the governance of the Club to the membership. If the membership once repowered wants to underwrite the current conditions at least they will have voted on it rather than having it decreed.

We can not predict how a Strong Membership will act, once they regain the rights that they have lost, but by damned I for one am willing to give them a chance.
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:24 PM   #339
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Once the elections are free and open and honest, and once the leadership doesn't single out individuals to impede from addressing the membershippeople and IBT Congress and to run for office, nor block or censor from the forums media; younger, newer volunteers citizens can step up and help the general membershippopulation alter the constitution and by-laws to allow the current imbalance of power to be redistributed.

Funny thing, democracy. Over 200 years of government "by, for and of" the people and we always seem to have a handful of rascals running the nation.

The WBCCI still has, what... around 7,000 members? How many of those 7,000 really involved in this fight? How many people have left because of the IBT's mismanagement? Funny thing, court. You think all of the facts are on your side and a clever lawyer will paint a much different picture. How many people have contributed to the legal fight? 100? 200? 400? Even if 500 people have written a check, that means 6500 haven't. In point of fact, you could radically change the WBCCI by convincing a mere 50 percent, 3500, to withhold dues for a year... and not spend a nickel on an attorney.

I know it's hard, but try to see the world through the IBT's eyes. The WBCCI extant is all that they have ever known. Even if a few hundred people are up in arms, there are several thousand who aren't. People are still paying dues. I'm sure there are those in the WBCCI waiting for their turn to "ride for free." And I'm sure there are people who are happy with how the club is being run. Trust me... if you go to trial, you'll hear this point made repeatedly.

Based on my admittedly limited grasp of the situation, I agree that the International leadership is hurting the WBCCI. Where I differ with some, however, is the solution. As long as power (read "money") is centralized at the International level, this same song will repeat. The lawsuit only brings you closer to a solution if the people winning do so to dismantle the machine. Until the power (read "money") is firmly in the hands in the units, it will be old wine in new bottles.
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:44 PM   #340
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I find this discussion about the IBT officers very interesting. At the Hobo Rally this past February, I had a conversation with John Boutwell, the candidate for I3VP, about why he, as a sitting Region President, was chosen and not someone who was not a sitting president. He told me that none of the prior region officers was willing to step up. I am not sure what to read into this.

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Old 05-05-2010, 12:44 PM   #341
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It's <6,000 members not 7,000, perhaps if you were a member you would know.

You said "Even if a few hundred people are up in arms, there are several thousand who aren't."

Let's see what the primary topic of conversation is at the International rally and how many are up in arms there after when the proponents of this fight explain it to folks who may not fully understand it.

.
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:47 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by wkerfoot View Post
I find this discussion about the IBT officers very interesting. At the Hobo Rally this past February, I had a conversation with John Boutwell, the candidate for I3VP, about why he, as a sitting Region President, was chosen and not someone who was not a sitting president. He told me that none of the prior region officers was willing to step up. I am not sure what to read into this.

Bill
Bill it has to do with free time.

Also you if you accept you have to be willing to spend your free time traveling all expenses paid.

.
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:55 PM   #343
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Bill it has to do with free time.

Also you if you accept you have to be willing to spend your free time traveling all expenses paid.

.
Bob,

I am not sure that what your say is the only reason. Several past region presidents are serving on other committees which do require free time.

Bill
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:24 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
Once the elections are free and open and honest, and once the leadership doesn't single out individuals to impede from addressing the membershippeople and IBT Congress and to run for office, nor block or censor from the forums media; younger, newer volunteers citizens can step up and help the general membershippopulation alter the constitution and by-laws to allow the current imbalance of power to be redistributed.

Funny thing, democracy. Over 200 years of government "by, for and of" the people and we always seem to have a handful of rascals running the nation.

The WBCCI still has, what... around 7,000 members? How many of those 7,000 really involved in this fight? How many people have left because of the IBT's mismanagement? Funny thing, court. You think all of the facts are on your side and a clever lawyer will paint a much different picture. How many people have contributed to the legal fight? 100? 200? 400? Even if 500 people have written a check, that means 6500 haven't. In point of fact, you could radically change the WBCCI by convincing a mere 50 percent, 3500, to withhold dues for a year... and not spend a nickel on an attorney.

I know it's hard, but try to see the world through the IBT's eyes. The WBCCI extant is all that they have ever known. Even if a few hundred people are up in arms, there are several thousand who aren't. People are still paying dues. I'm sure there are those in the WBCCI waiting for their turn to "ride for free." And I'm sure there are people who are happy with how the club is being run. Trust me... if you go to trial, you'll hear this point made repeatedly.

Based on my admittedly limited grasp of the situation, I agree that the International leadership is hurting the WBCCI. Where I differ with some, however, is the solution. As long as power (read "money") is centralized at the International level, this same song will repeat. The lawsuit only brings you closer to a solution if the people winning do so to dismantle the machine. Until the power (read "money") is firmly in the hands in the units, it will be old wine in new bottles.
Touche.' Obviously with my quote and your edits, you have quite apparently found me and my value system out. Good job, actually.

I can't disagree with you either. I am certain the EC7 is "banking" on the majority of silent members and tethered co-leaders and for various reasons they can enjoy a certain degree of insulation and arrogance.

Withholding membership dues is another approach. Drafting amendments or writing to leadership or expressing ideas and concerns on social networks are more avenues of involvement. All means are welcome and combined I think leadership is finally acknowleging and admitting there is a problem, though on what that is remains debatable.

I think a lawsuit was a good option once Leo G. was expelled without recourse unjustifiably. I think the Mid Winter's handling of combining the many grievance committee motions and addressing them only in closed door session secreted away from the simulcast and membership in attendance also has an important part in the decision to try communication outside the normal channels of club order. If it were not for those two particulars I might have chosen other options myself. But here you have leadership cheating in the elections, cheating in trumping up charges and expulsion and cheating in the judicial processes of grievances and meeting procedures and lying about the application of malicious computer scripts designed to ban black listed members from the official forums and all contrived in an concerted effort to eliminate critical competition. Fraud, discrimination, and disception are just a few of those actionable items that could be addressed.

As has been pointed out, we could lose all the money spent on this. I don't think that will be the outcome, but even if it were I would not hesitate a moment to do it over again. I am not playing the odds and picking only the winners. I am supporting a movement and action to hold the leadership accountable for their actions and misdeeds. They can only put down so many before things change. Leo was first. I want to stand up and take a turn too.

Ideally Leo will be back within the WBCCI to campaign and we will happily be allowed to vote our conscience, even in an rv club. And if we lose, we lose with honor, but quitting and cheating is not an option.
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:47 PM   #345
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Silvertwinkie,

Since this matter no longer involves just a few members but an entire Unit of the WBCCI, will the powers on the WBCCI forums allow a thread talking about the matter to be started and if so, will it be allowed to link to defendwally.org website?
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:12 PM   #346
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And, will they allow it to proceed without overzealous moderation - you know, let there be open and honest communication?
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:24 PM   #347
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Silvertwinkie,

Since this matter no longer involves just a few members but an entire Unit of the WBCCI, will the powers on the WBCCI forums allow a thread talking about the matter to be started and if so, will it be allowed to link to defendwally.org website?

I think we've been around these types of questions before. Some of the things you ask are not my call, they are WBCCI's call. For example, putting links to another site. If WBCCI says sure, it's not my place to say "but wait". If WBCCI says no, then if one were to put a link, it would seem equally clear what the outcome would be. So I think the better place to place this question is with WBCCI.

In terms of the first part of your question, I don't personally have any issue with a healthy, but civil discussion. Most of these types of conversations though are not in the public areas that I help manage. Most of these kinds of conversations are in the member only areas which I don't have access to. Now I have spoken several times with the group (Charlie, Diane and Greg) and the consensus has always been that civil, constructive and factual conversations are fine. However, as you know, this is a touchy subject and they easily escalate quickly. Even here, there are times when things get to a point where actions are taken. If you saw fit to post this in the member only area following the terms of the TOS, some of which I highlighted here, I can't see it being an issue.

This is my personal take. Keep in mind, it's not my site, it belongs to WBCCI. I may help manage the outside face of that forum, but I don't set policy.

As for Tim's post, he has openly said many times he has no desire to post or participate there, so is that really a question Tim or just a jab?
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:22 PM   #348
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Quote:

As for Tim's post, he has openly said many times he has no desire to post or participate there, so is that really a question Tim or just a jab?
Well, being as you don't have to be an actual member to participate in this venue, and being as you take full liberty to enjoy that completely free venue here, will it exist there as well? It is irrelevant whether or not I participate there. The question is an honest one - you know it!
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:58 PM   #349
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Well, being as you don't have to be an actual member to participate in this venue, and being as you take full liberty to enjoy that completely free venue here, will it exist there as well? It is irrelevant whether or not I participate there. The question is an honest one - you know it!
I think my previously stated answer was fairly self explanatory, Tim. If you need further clarification, shoot me a PM and we'll talk offline.
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:30 PM   #350
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The entire issue of how the WBBCI forum is run will be addressed in the suit.
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