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Old 05-05-2010, 08:57 AM   #323
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The intent of the litigation may have little to do with the results in the end.

If the IBT is honest--as Bob admits--I suspect they are also as sincere. I imagine they believe they are right with same conviction as Carol believes they are wrong.

So all of these attempts to change the International leadership have "failed." Why? Is it because they are feckless? That seems a bit harsh to me. I imagine the leadership is mostly guilty of being on the wrong side of history. They are old and apparently are in their ways. The very things they want to preserve about the WBCCI--the 1967 ethos--are the same things others want to change.

I'm not sure the WBCCI will survive with either group in power, not in the long run. All of the improvements Carol seeks, her entire conceptualization as new leadership as "good custodians" is still a fundamentally "top down" approach.

In my experience, the Airstream community is eclectic, free thinking and often head strong. It is not--I think--a group of shrinking violets. This is one of the reasons I think the traditional, hierarchical model is suboptimal on matter how enlightened the leadership might be. I'm pretty sure litigation is a hammer; I just don't the think WBCCI's problems are a nail.
I think you are right on. A large part of the battle is who gets to be boss, not the processes that create an entity WBCCI. WBCCI is over as an organizing structure and a "bottom" up collective will likly take it's place for some. Others just want their turn to "run" things and will not be any more acceptable to those of us who can manage ourselves without their guidance. Opportunity to gather, yes. That is just an issue of communication, which the forum enables. There will always be those who need someone to tell them were to go, when to get their, when to eat, drink, or light their campfire. They an plenty willing to do so. This will keep WBCCI going for another 10 years.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:01 AM   #324
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The intent of the litigation may have little to do with the results in the end.
You need to review case law on other clubs and how their issues were resolved.

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If the IBT is honest--as Bob admits--I suspect they are also as sincere.
That is completely out of context, I said they are honest in that they would not steal the clubs money. Sincere, no.

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So all of these attempts to change the International leadership have "failed." Why?
I thought you understood this better, the bylaws don't allow it.



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I'm not sure the WBCCI will survive with either group in power,
This is not a power play, its change in the way things done under an outdated constitution, bylaws and failure to follow Roberts Rules. Also the way the good 'ol boys operate.

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I'm pretty sure litigation is a hammer; I just don't the think WBCCI's problems are a nail.
That answer has not yet ripened!

.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:05 AM   #325
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This will keep WBCCI going for another 10 years.
They'll be out of money in 3 years, or sooner depending on their legal bills.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:12 AM   #326
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It's all how you say it.

“Feckless”
Doesn’t seem like all that bad of a word when she explains the definition. Maybe if the gentlemen of the IBT/EC7 had let her tell them the definition someone would have gotten an award instead of a grievance.

YouTube - Feckless
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:49 AM   #327
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With that definition and accent I can see that the IBT might have considered "Feckless" unflattering.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:55 AM   #328
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Sorry, Bob, only my wife gets to tell me what I need to do. A court ruling doesn't change culture or the human heart. You won't find that in the case law, but you will in the fabric of American history.

Having been involved in conflict and disputes, I have learned that very few people think of themselves as "the bad guy." I'm guessing the IBT thinks of themselves as basically good people who are entitled to the "perks" of office. You drag them into court and what exactly do you think is going to happen? What? They are going to slap themselves on the forehead and exclaim, "Hey, I could of had a V-8"?

The reason the Blue Book is the size it is, and the reason the WBCCI has its current Byzantine organizational structure, is because in the 50s and 60s, people thought better rules make for better organizations... especially the military. Good morning, Vietnam.

If your goal in court is simply to vanquish the old guard, OK. You win and break the stranglehold of power, many will leave. But as long as power is centralized, the same problems will happen again. You'll be the new boss, same as the old boss.
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:08 AM   #329
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Perhaps you can redistribute or delegate some of that power?

Ex: Grievances can be administered at the unit level as to one of their members.

Sure if things are changed the Laurence Welkers & some ex military may quit, but the upside should outway that loss.

We all pretty much agree that things have to change, I believe the lawsuit will facilitate that change. I know I'm not alone.
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:30 AM   #330
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Once the elections are free and open and honest, and once the leadership doesn't single out individuals to impede from addressing the membership and IBT and to run for office, nor block or censor from the forums; younger, newer volunteers can step up and help the general membership alter the constitution and by-laws to allow the current imbalance of power to be redistributed. Smaller goverment, KISS, however you prefer to approach the situation, those that have offered to throw their hats in the ring have not been of the "I wanna be boss and lord it over you" types. For case in point just check out the VAC.

The problem is the current leadership has stonewalled and shut out all efforts and individual members that have tried to make changes AND have done it in a myriad of unethical ways. Even the current constitution could allow for changes and new air, if the board and parlimentarian would facilitate and aid members and units. The club governance is not set up to be a bunch of bosses to tell members what to do, it is to be a bunch or representatives making certain the membership's will is served.Instead you have this civil unrest because power has indeed corrupted those on their 13 year (whatever) march-up to the top and their international retirement status. They don't take kindly to any "upstarts" upsetting their apple cart. You don't hear the call for volunteeers as you once had. They decided they didn't want volunteers, they wanted clones.

The fight is not fair. To me that IS the point. Their bag of dirty tricks has no place in our recreational club. I also am not that sour and pessimistic to think new leaders would persue nefarious machinations for their own privilege and benefit.
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:45 AM   #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rideair View Post
“Feckless”
Doesn’t seem like all that bad of a word when she explains the definition. Maybe if the gentlemen of the IBT/EC7 had let her tell them the definition someone would have gotten an award instead of a grievance.

YouTube - Feckless
Well, this is an intriguing video to say the least. The presentation is excellent IMHO. But more importantly, the definition of feckless may not be known by many. It does sound potentially offensive, but as an adjective, may very accurately describe the leadership:
Quote:
–adjective
1. ineffective; incompetent; futile: feckless attempts to repair the plumbing.
2. having no sense of responsibility; indifferent; lazy.
Based on that definition, I would agree that the leadership in the club does indeed appear to be ineffective in turning membership numbers around and, incompetent in managing the budget.
If it is a grievable offense to point this fact out at any venue, I will start looking for my next grievance.
I think the facts show clearly that the leadership actually has the full knowledge of the budgetary situation but is choosing to not take the kinds of measures necessary to immediately halt the problem. But additionally (and this is just MY opinion) I cannot escape the impression that steps are indeed being taken to silence vociferous opposition using a combination of methods including expulsions.
BTW - when it comes to word definitions and misunderstandings of true definitions, for years and years I thought that to peruse a document meant to just scan it over. I was quite surprised to learn that it really meant to read thoroughly.
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:55 AM   #332
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I don't understand how a lawsuit is going to change the way people move up in the leadership—an election system that is based on promoting people according to lengthy experience and a nominating committee controlled by the leadership do not seem to me to be per se against the law. It takes a political campaign over the long haul to change the system.

I have seen organizations that were very democratic become run by the same out of touch people for years because few members wanted to be leaders. I have also seen people who genuinely thought they were democratic rationalize themselves into all sorts of antidemocratic actions. It takes an attentive and strong membership to keep any organization democratic.

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Old 05-05-2010, 11:04 AM   #333
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It's always been grievable to the IBT to criticize in any way. It starts out with their code of ethics to speak no discontent, it is reflected in the sanitized Blue Beret, it is exercised as censorship in the WBCCI forums, putting Pleasantville as their only foot forward to the public, it results in letters from headquarters and lawyers from suggestions to cease and desist orders, it spawns multitudes of grievances of leadership against members. You might even get physically assaulted, but they will not tolerate insurrection. Give them that old time "quality" member, the rest are readily expendable as undesirable "quantity."
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:12 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by wheel interested;845752

The fight is not fair. To me that [B
IS[/B] the point. Their bag of dirty tricks has no place in our recreational club. I also am not that sour and pessimistic to think new leaders would persue nefarious machinations for their own privilege and benefit.
Very good.

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Old 05-05-2010, 11:14 AM   #335
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It's always been grievable to the IBT to criticize in any way. It starts out with their code of ethics to speak no discontent, it is reflected in the sanitized Blue Beret, it is exercised as censorship in the WBCCI forums, putting Pleasantville as their only foot forward to the public, it results in letters from headquarters and lawyers from suggestions to cease and desist orders, it spawns multitudes of grievances of leadership against members. You might even get physically assaulted, but they will not tolerate insurrection. Give them that old time "quality" member, the rest are readily expendable as undesirable "quantity."
And, again, the mindset of the WWII generation---"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".

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Old 05-05-2010, 11:28 AM   #336
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If it is a grievable offense to point this fact out at any venue, I will start looking for my next grievance.
.
Don't worry Tim, we'll add you as a plaintiff
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