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Old 03-26-2010, 11:11 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dufferin View Post
Maggie,

your will to adress issues from inside is valuable. Though some tried before to reach the position that allow to make those changes... and they were put under grievance sooner after.

I am very aware of that.

Since you are a member of the club, and aware of the facts, I don't need to remind you all of them.

Thank you.

But may I ask you what your plan is to adress the issues from inside.

You may.

Do you plan to run for an International position?

Absolutely not.

if yes, how do plan to reach it? do you plan to propose changes to the bylaw/constitution? and as a "mere" member (it is not my own wording as you know) how do you plan to achieve so?

We will deal with issues from within our unit and as otherwise needed. We don't intend to become activists nor to try to lead the charge. We are retired state employees---been there, done that. This thread, and the emotionally charged but illogical nature of it all, is the issue here and now.

And be sure that I am not asking those questions with any kind of malice. I am truly interested to know what your options are.
Thank you.

Maggie
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:15 AM   #226
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I would think it would go without saying that there are no good resolutions at this point. The club is declining and while some try to work within to change it, that doesn't seem to be happening fast. Many or some members are very unhappy and will remain so for a while. When diplomacy fails, nations go to war; when attempts to change an organization fail, Americans go to court. It's ugly no matter what happens and nothing is going to change that for a while. That's a given…

So, the question is, is it a valid lawsuit? The claims have been posted above by Lynn and they are what I would expect given what I have read on numerous threads. A board director has a fiduciary duty to run the organization properly—that's vastly simplified, but it comes to that. Fiscal mismanagement, ignoring the bylaws, using organizational funds for personal use are all serious violations of fiduciary duty if these allegations are found to be true. A court can order changes in governance, money to be returned, people thrown out to be reinstated.

It's likely the WBCCI has officers and directors insurance. It may or may not cover the acts alleged depending on the intent of each director for each claim. So, one or more directors may have serious exposure if they are found to expending organizational resources improperly. The organization is probably, by its bylaws, bound to defend the directors and will have legal expenses, which may or may not be covered by insurance.

Insurance companies have no emotional attachment to the insured. They will want to settle especially if they see poor governance. Since some directors may have different interests than others have, the insurance company may have to hire outside counsel to represent each director—that will cost a lot and they will not like that. I have no idea whether the potential plaintiffs have sufficient money for the long haul, but there may not be a long haul. It's possible there will be a complaint, an answer and maybe some motions and then the parties will sit down and start talking. At that point the insurance companies will take over for the WBCCI and the directors. If the insured doesn't accept an settlement the insurance company lawyers have worked out, they could be stuck for an additional damages when a more expensive settlement or judgment comes later. Do not underestimate the power of insurance companies in this process.

Gene
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:34 AM   #227
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very true, well said Gene
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:49 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
When diplomacy fails...

Gene
Gene,

as you know, unfortunately, I actually don't recall it ever start... or was either possible.

And that is one the problem as well. The IBT refuse to communicate, exchange... Bob T offered the option of a mediation...

Result : Ignored.

They are not even polite to decline the offer.
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Old 03-26-2010, 01:08 PM   #229
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Dufferin,

Again, I don't know all the specifics, so again speaking generally: When people have a grievance of any sort, they usually have something to say. Humans like to be heard and if the other side is not listening, refusing to listen, or communicating in a way that shows they don't care, they are asking for a lawsuit. Failure to communicate leads to many problems. Sometimes people just want to be heard and if they are and the exchange is honest and conducted fairly, it can end there and not escalate to the next level.

Getting people together in a room and having some ground rules to foster productive discourse is the best way to resolve disputes, but sometimes litigation has to be used to get people into that room after the costs start piling up and the anxiety becomes unbearable. Humans are the problem, not the legal system.

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Old 03-26-2010, 01:50 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Sure, I only asked for clarification did I not?

actually NO 'pets u didn't ask for clarification and u used the same bullying directed THIS WAY in an earlier post.

your posts have a LONG record of implying/suggesting and TELLING folks who may not be members of the wb'....

that they are NOT welcome to comment on wb' matters HERE.

and there is also a record of telling folks with LESS a/s experience that they are UNqualified to organize NEW 'stream clubs...

in other words your methods are EXACTLY the same as the wb bobbleheads...

((we've got experience, WE KNOW what is best, WE decide things for others, u don't know anything...))

just spewed toward AIR forum folks NOT in a tiny confused angry click of wb'ers who are CRYING about control...

this approach wins NO control, and when the dust settles will not be forgot by the newer a/s owners you will THEN be recruiting "to have fun"

it's all politics (not allowed here) and it's all DIRTY POLITICS...

but those slinging THIS dirt seem to think it's OK 4 them to do it.
____________

howieE

i'll post this one more time...

you're a nice guy, sensible to visit with in person and good 2 camp near.

and generally you don't get wacky or accusing in your posts, EVEN on this topic.

so i actually LOOK FORWARD to any REAL UPdates from you,

once the gumming and thumb wresting is ACTUALLY in front of a referee...

now that that is OUT of the way 4 the last time....

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
...You all tend to run with the majority...
you have NO bearing, no facts and no credibility by LUMPING those who post into this thread together.

none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
...Of that number many have recorded comments here and elsewhere that they will not be members next year...
and a LOT of us did not renew LAST year or in the past 5 years...

so as currently NON members of the wb' we may still have GOOD INSIGHTS into this long term/fundamental CLUB decline...

but withOUT being so wrapped up in the current GRIEVANCEs that REALLY are at the core of NEW YORK unit/region opera...

my NON renewal had nothing to do with the PRIMARY issues driving the CRY and DEFEND efforts now.

as a matter of fact this GROUP and their METHODS are EXACTLY part of the reasons for NON renewal...

the crop of folks RIGHT behind the wb' current bobble heads are JUST as perverted with regard to club direction and leadership...

but THINK they are somehow different and THAT is a scary reality for the club.

and a SENSIBLE REASON to EXIT the wb' (safe/defend is just as UGLY an alternative 4 leadership as the ibt' bobbleheads)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
...it's our money they are spending and that is not acceptable...
since i did not renew the wb' is no longer spending MY money.

but it is OUR MONEY (air forums members) this effort is attempting to SOLICIT and SPEND now....

that's the problem and THAT is UNacceptable...

the "defend a local member effort who is being spanked and booted out" is turned into a mud throwing exercise HERE...

with the primary goal to SPEND OUR MONEY for LOCAL feuds...

again the groups actions are no better (and may be worse) than the wb' bobble heads u hope to hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
...Rather than stand on the side lines and attempt to derail the effort why not let it play out...
we are NOT standing on the sidelines, but rather attempting to GET THE MONEY BEGGING OFF the air waves...

i am ALL for letting it play OUT, OUT there somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
...Who knows you all might consider joining a Club dedicated to Airstreams and unburdened of these leaches...
yeah a club without leaches might be cool.

but JOIN a formal group who has at it's core this save/defend faction who will stop at NOTHING to get there way?

not a club i wanna be in, ever.

and that is a DEEPER issue to understand, that the online behaviors of a few who, want OTHERS to eventually WANT to join up with...

is HURT by suggesting 'we are all a like' 'you're not members so stfu'

and so on.
_________

my a/s props are as DEEP as yours and DEEPER than most of the new york cry babies who only rely on BULLYING to get their way.

hell i might just REJOIN the wb' and give THEM a sh!t load of money...

how's that fit with your WE WANT MONEY crying drive?
_________

see ya camping some time guys, but take this crap elsewhere eh?

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-26-2010, 01:54 PM   #231
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Gene,

I used your post, and specifically what I quoted, to make understand the septic that there is not many ways left to solve the problem. And one of the first is the total absence of communication.

Inside : failed.
Mediation - Diplomacy : failed

And you are right on.

That action could lead at least to a dialogue.
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Old 03-26-2010, 01:58 PM   #232
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Another way to kill the messenger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
actually NO 'pets u didn't ask for clarification and u used the same bullying directed THIS WAY in an earlier post.

your posts have a LONG record of implying/suggesting and TELLING folks who may not be members of the wb'....

that they are NOT welcome to comment on wb' matters HERE.

and there is also a record of telling folks with LESS a/s experience that they are UNqualified to organize NEW 'stream clubs...

in other words your methods are EXACTLY the same as the wb bobbleheads...

just spewed toward AIR forum folks NOT in a tiny confused angry click of wb'ers who are CRYING about control...

this approach wins NO control, and when the dust settles will not be forgot by the newer a/s owners you will THEN be recruiting "to have fun"

it's all politics (not allowed here) and it's all DIRTY POLITICS...

but those slinging THIS dirt seem to think it's OK 4 them to do it.
____________

howieE

i'll post this one more time...

you're a nice guy, sensible to visit with in person and good 2 camp near.

and generally you don't get wacky or accusing in your posts, EVEN on this topic.

so i actually LOOK FORWARD to any REAL UPdates from you,

once the gumming and thumb wresting is ACTUALLY in front of a referee...

now that that is OUT of the way 4 the last time....



you have NO bearing, no facts and no credibility by LUMPING those who post into this thread together.

none.



and a LOT of us did not renew LAST year or in the past 5 years...

so as currently NON members of the wb' we may still have GOOD INSIGHTS into this whole mess...

but withOUT being so wrapped up in the current GRIEVANCEs that REALLY are at the core of NEW YORK unit/region opera...

my NON renewal had nothing to do with the PRIMARY issues driving the CRY and DEFEND efforts now.

as a matter of fact this GROUP and their METHODS are EXACTLY part of the reasons for NON renewal...

the crop of folks RIGHT behind the wb' current bobble heads are JUST as perverted with regard to club direction and leadership...

but THINK they are somehow different and THAT is a scary reality for the club.



since i did not renew the wb' is no longer spending MY money.

but it is OUR MONEY (air forums members) this effort is attempting to SOLICIT and SPEND now....

that's the problem. the "defend a local member effort" is turned into a mud throwing exercise HERE...

the the primary goal to SPEND OUR MONEY.

again the groups actions are no better (and may be worse) than the wb' bobble heads u hope to hurt.



we are NOT standing on the sidelines, but rather attempting to GET THE MONEY BEGGING OFF the air waves...

i am ALL for letting it play OUT, OUT there somewhere.



yeah a club without leaches might be cool.

but JOIN a formal group who has at it's core this save/defend faction who will stop at NOTHING to get there way?

not a club i wanna be in, ever.

and that is a DEEPER issue to understand, that the online behaviors of a few who, want OTHERS to eventually WANT to join up with...

is HURT by suggesting 'we are all a like' 'you're not members so stfu'

and so on.
_________

my a/s props are as DEEP as yours and DEEPER than most of the new york cry babies who only rely on BULLYING to get there way.

hell i might just REJOIN the wb' and give THEM a sh!t load of money...

how's that fit with your WE WANT MONEY crying drive?
_________

see ya camping some time guys, but take this crap elsewhere eh?

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:40 PM   #233
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I think the one thing we can agree on is that we all have a common goal: change. How we as members/ex-members are going about it is where there are differences. It is my belief that quitting/withholding dues is one way to fight back, which is why I quit after '06. Working for change from within is another, although we have seen the results.

While people may agree or disagree about whether a lawsuit is appropriate, maybe this three-pronged approach at change will finally get the IBT-EC-7's attention and something will change.

One can only hope...
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:47 PM   #234
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yep agreed, and wisely written frederic...

i like your thinking!

now, have YOU got any projects that need money?

something important or worthy that might do the WORLD good?

is there a litter of hungry puppies or motherless kittens MEOWing in the back ground?

if so post about it, i can see contributions ROLLing in 2 you right away!

ok not from me 4 cats, but the dogs i'd be IN for supporting...

maybe sally struthers is available 4 a 30 minute UPDATE video?

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:53 PM   #235
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Hamp, if you go to enough International or regional rallies, or even one you quickly learn many newer members do not care for the rules, the higher dues, the entertainment or the way the club or events are run but attend to meet other Airstreamers. Jut because people are paying their dues DOES NOT mean they are satisfied rather than resigned to the current state of the club. Even though the leadership wanted to change both the name of the club and the brand identity you would find these same people who are paying their WBCCI dues regularly very adverse to those two changes. While leadership is supposed to represent members it has regularly represented it's own interests and when they decided traveling around full time on their subsidized tours was done better in their fiberglass motorhomes and Airstream stopped makinmg them they decided the club was about friends and not about Airstreams. This elite group does not represent the majority regardless of the collection of dues. You will just have to interview as many members as possible to see I am not incorrect about this. Or is it that I do not spend any time with the other group as may be said that that other group sepends no time with my kind.

I am not a member this year either but enjoyed membership and an International rally with 2Air. He led the failed charge (well at least he supported it wholeheartedlt) for MALs to unify and becaome a unit. I supported that idea as a MAL and to am disappointed in what has transpired. They decied to charge MALs more than any other unit and the entire $80.00 before the new increase goes directly to the International level and MALs do not receive a vote, the 1M1V that 2Air mentioned that was on the Save Wally agenda some years ago and was not pursued.

2Air, to me it is not a matter of collecting funds. The funds that we started with were spontaneously offered. You don't care for solicitation, some do some don't but the issue, I insist is bigger than that. It is the misrepresentation of the WBCCI leaders not on members behalf but in for it for themselves, the perks, the lifestyle and prestige and the clout to use collectively against whomever has become deemed an enemy of the board. That is the point, don't let the cry for funds overshadow the issue. What do you say to those girls with their cookies?

No one needs to contribute. No one is trying to get anyone to part with their money if they don't want to. I entreat you to go beyond the method.

And it's really neither here nor there but I don't intend to offer any additonal funds beyond my first pledge. If it takes it takes if not then we will have to try something else.
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:03 PM   #236
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Quote:
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...You don't care for solicitation, some do some don't but the issue, I insist is bigger than that...
what i care for is totally irrelevant.

and the BIGGER issue HERE is REdirects to another site that DOES ask for money...

and money requests made publicly HERE or via pms or via EMAIL links found HERE...

while i can and have opt'd beYond the method, it IS exactly these methods that are the issue.
________

the last meaningful UPdate was 3/2/2010 and reads...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
...This is going forward and yes it will cost a buck or two...
no definitive forward since.

just blather and stirring.
________

gotta go, there is a commotion in the campground...

someone found a baby OpossuM without a mother

and a just hatched robin with a broked wing ...

$$ details 2 follow.

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:04 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
yep agreed, and wisely written frederic...

i like your thinking!

now, have YOU got any projects that need money?

something important or worthy that might do the WORLD good?

is there a litter of hungry puppies or motherless kittens MEOWing in the back ground?

if so post about it, i can see contributions ROLLing in 2 you right away!

ok not from me 4 cats, but the dogs i'd be IN for supporting...

maybe sally struthers is available 4 a 30 minute UPDATE video?

cheers
2air'
Yeah, it's called paying down the Lynes household debt, which is one of the reasons why we put the Sovereign up for sale!
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:11 PM   #238
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Yeah, it's called paying down the Lynes household debt, which is one of the reasons why we put the Sovereign up for sale!
yeah, that's painful but IN the long run a positive action.

and fortunately if/when the sov' sells...

you will STILL be allowed to post here.

as 'leeper so gently suggested a few posts ago...

"As a member of Airforums you should be able to post to any thread on Airforums no matter what your outside affiliations are."
_________

don't ya at LEAST have a link to the 4sale ad to include here?

somebody here might WANT a sovereign to RULE over...

cheers
2air'
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