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Old 05-03-2010, 05:44 PM   #301
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Ask Metro NY, Leo, Tim & Howie?

As to blame, I'll blame you cowboy for your lack of support, TAC'y.
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Old 05-03-2010, 06:17 PM   #302
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I'm glad to see the suit go forward. I just now doubled my original pledge.

I would hope for a negotiated settlement with agreement to primarily fix the non-election election process and the juvenile grievance process as well as balance spending without doing it on the backs of the membership..
Thanks John
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Old 05-03-2010, 06:23 PM   #303
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When this blows up in your face will you cowboy up and accept responsibility? When the history books are written will YOU Bob accept the results of your actions? Because you WILL loose and so will the remaining +/- 6000 members you have. Law suits do nothing but make money for attorneys.
Have a little tac(t), oh that's right you already do, and have walked away from WBCCI and given up and started your own club, but you just like to keep in the mix, because...why?

Whatever your choice of expression, blaming the injured for gaffling at their oppressors for causing trouble is way out of sync. Shame on you and whomever else thinks it is small to make oneself a target on behalf of others and then goes to the extreme of heaping fiery coals upon their heads. The only people to be held accountable for the demise of the club is the leadership and not the membership that continues to try to effect change with the means they have available, since the practice has become to disenfranchise members and leaders who speak out.

Pick a side Frank, any side...you're confusing me. Do you really think it is your duty as a quitter and founder of a replacement club to malign members who are trying to stick it out through adversity and make a positive difference for the future? Wherein lie your loyalties and what is the cost of your alliegience? Saving face? Because it apparently is not working...
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Old 05-03-2010, 06:59 PM   #304
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I agree 100% with the need, it is the method I think is wrong. Others on this thread with experience in legal matters have been subtly trying to tell you the same. Hampstead... he runs the city of Hampstead. How many law suits do you think he sees in week? Other lawyers have said the same. Soon enough a fat lady(and a little skinny one) will sing and we all will know the out come.

Call me what ever you want. I have been called far worse from people I actually have respect for. But your opinion is just as important as mine(unless it does not agree with yours, and then my opinion is 100% irrelevant).
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Old 05-03-2010, 07:38 PM   #305
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Frank you know not what you speak, I just set you to IGNORE.

Ps: Carol hit the nail on the head, send a check quitter.
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:21 PM   #306
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will you call all those who do not renew in 2011 "quitters" too? Call me all the names you want. I have very thick skin.
Now turn that ignore button back on...
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:59 PM   #307
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No name calling, at least I had not thought of the reference as being a negative reference as much as my point was about the anomoly of someone who is no longer interested in being in the club being so very interested and critical of how those left in the club conduct their business. I am not ignoring you or calling you names.

I am glad that we do agree on the need. And your objection to the method is duly noted. But that is what we have pursued and that is what we will stand with. And I apologize if your comment was not an intrusion but a legitimate comment of constructive criticism and geniune concern and we misinterpreted.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

The effort is snowballing and we are heartened by the support of individual members and units! It is nothing short of monumental and we thank the supporters and encourage all to have a share. You can help just by spreading the word and bringing this up at your next meeting or to your friends in WBCCI. If ever there was an act worth pursuing this is it and the opportunity to make the voices of the general membership heard at last.
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Old 05-04-2010, 05:20 AM   #308
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The effort is snowballing and we are heartened by the support of individual members and units!

You can help just by spreading the word and bringing this up at your next meeting or to your friends in WBCCI.

If ever there was an act worth pursuing this is it and the opportunity to make the voices of the general membership heard at last.
There has been a surge in pledges, and 4 units have expressed interest or requested more information.
One asked Metro NY to confirm if it was true that the unit will be a Plaintiff.

At Metro's unit meeting this past Saturday I was suprised several members didn't fully understand the issues and the process.
Therefore, if any other units need more info to discuss this matter and consider joining as an additional plaintiffs please pm me with your phone and time to contact.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:44 AM   #309
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When there is a perceived wrong some people walk away, some people fight it and sometimes the only way to get the accused wrongdoer to change is to sue them. All these outcomes are unfortunate and in a more perfect world none would occur. "Quitting" is just as reasonable an approach as fighting and suing.

I wrote some time ago the lawsuit would probably be settled because almost all of them are. That doesn't mean a lawsuit isn't a reasonable approach to resolve some disputes. People get tired of the litigation process and want out. Those nasty old lawyers have run out of room in their garages for another Porsche convertible with all the money they've made so they encourage settlements. Judges encourage settlements too because if every case went to trial, there'd be a 100 year backlog on the docket.

Hampstead's post about culture raises some important points. I'll be interested to see how it all winds out. After the lawsuit ends, I wonder if the WBCCI will be very different culturally even if the financial mess is solved. If it is not very different, I suspect it will still decline because of cultural issues. I think the financial mess is only part of the reason, and possibly a small part, for the long, long decline in membership.

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Old 05-04-2010, 10:30 AM   #310
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"Quitting" is just as reasonable an approach as fighting and suing. Gene
Sure, but once you do, don't keep trying to harass the people that remain
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:20 AM   #311
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By the time someone files for divorce, the "culture" of marriage has already changed. The WBCCI has the marital equivalent of "irreconciliable differences." The real dispute here--as far as I can tell--is a custody battle... ownership over the Byam legacy, the red numbers and blue berets, the trappings and history.

I appreciate your perspective as an attorney, Gene. Maybe the D&O carrier or some other stakeholder will force the International to sit down and discuss settlement... but I don't see any mutually satisfactory compromise. There is no "joint custody" for running an organization. You have a majority bloc of votes on the board... or you don't. Whatever side has majority control will use it to 1) resist change; 2) impose change. Whatever side is out of power will 1) leave; 2) actively resist in an effort to retake power.

The only solution is my mind is to remove almost all authority from the International and push it down to the units. Eliminate all board perqs. Cut International staff to a skeleton crew. Let units keep most of the dues. As long as power is centralized at the International level, the infighting will never cease. Let folks sort things out at the unit level. If one group wants a Lawrence Welk unit and another group wants an Eddie Vedder unit... so be it.

So, does anyone care enough about the WBCCI to have all of the power and privilege of the International... and give it to the units?
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:51 AM   #312
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I also think fair application of club rules and open and just handling of grievances and elections are major issues. Once leadership suspends rules and writes others in to support their personal venue the offices have been compromised and new leaders should have custody of that trust, imo. I am sure there are many of the general membership that would be good custodians. There must be representation of all. Communication has failed. Surveys have failed. Committees have failed. Election attempts have failed. To call deviations "infractions" is extremely generous terminology. Rights have been violated. Boundaries have been crossed. Issues are not simply limited to generational or cultural issues, they have beome matters of illegal activity and immoral practices and deceit.
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Old 05-04-2010, 12:31 PM   #313
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In lurking on this site for some time, I am reminded once again that it's a good thing the good old days of settling our disputes with swords and clubs are behind us.

Good wishes to all beings in these troubled times.
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Old 05-04-2010, 12:33 PM   #314
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There's no doubt there are many issues worthy of reform and Carol has pointed out many. Cultural issues are not so easily resolved via litigation. Even if the court appointed a receiver or a court master to run the nonprofit temporarily, the receiver or master would most likely be involved in specific narrow questions only. I'm not saying that a court would go that far, but only that it is difficult to get into issues like sandals and slacks, prayers and Lawrence Welk through litigation.

There has to be an overall strategy for reform and litigation is one of several tactics available. Litigation may solve some issues, but not all of them.

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Old 05-04-2010, 12:41 PM   #315
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Even if the court appointed a receiver or a court master to run the nonprofit temporarily, the receiver or master would most likely be involved in specific narrow questions only. Gene
Gene, you are now confusing people, we have no intention of requesting a receiver or court appointed anything.

Until you see the complaint hold your horses please.
This is not the intent of the litigation.

The IBT isn't going to run to Rio with the cash.

even though they can't manage money, they are honest, just feckless

(look that one up boys & girls, the IBT had to.)
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:09 PM   #316
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I know what the issues are. What I would like to know is what is being sought by the plaintiffs?
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:29 PM   #317
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I'm not going to post that at this time, for a variety of reasons in a public forum.
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:22 PM   #318
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even though they can't manage money, they are honest, just feckless
(look that one up boys & girls, the IBT had to.)
Many have asked what was the bases of the complaint in the grievances currently under consideration. One is appears to be centered on the use of the word "Feckless" as a description of the IBT. After researching the word they filed a grievance. Since the grievences are top secret we don't know whether they considered that word flattering or unflattering.

For those of you not next to a dictionary that means useless, incompetent, hopeless, spineless, feeble, weak, ineffective, or worthless.
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:23 PM   #319
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Bob, perhaps I have confused you, but neither of us know about others' state of mind. I was musing about the myriad possibilities and did not say what your intentions are because I don't know them. The post was about what a court can and cannot accomplish and some of the avenues open to a court. Be thankful I didn't mention the role of the state attorneys general in nonprofit litigation.

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Old 05-04-2010, 04:54 PM   #320
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Since the grievences are top secret we don't know whether they considered that word flattering or unflattering.

IMO Leo can sing like a canary, he's not a member.

The one thing they did to Leo by expulsion is unleash a pit-bull.

Oh Howie, unflattering, but then again that was only Leo's opinion,
as you know the IBT doesn't allow opinions.

I'll take odds that Leo is reinstated in the lawsuit due to the gross violations of the IBT ignoring their own bylaws. Also when witness can testifiy that Collier said at the Fla State rally " if he (Leo) wins his appeal we have a new grievance waiting to file" how do spell conspiracy?

Here it is

First: That two or more persons, in some way or manner, came to a mutual understanding to try to accomplish a common and unlawful plan;
Second: That the person willfully became a member of such conspiracy;
Third: That one of the conspirators during the existence of the conspiracy knowingly committed at least one of the methods (or 'overt acts') described; and
Fourth: That such 'overt act' was knowingly committed at or about the time alleged in an effort to carry out or accomplish some object of the conspiracy.
An 'overt act' is any transaction or event, even one which may be entirely innocent when considered alone, but which is knowingly committed by a conspirator in an effort to accomplish some object of the conspiracy.



The discovery phase of the lawsuit will be very telling.


There's plenty of parking for Airstreams in Court's parking lot, even a motorhome.


Welcome to NY boys





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