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Old 03-24-2010, 09:33 PM   #197
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2. money requests turned DOWNsideUP

and these things STILL appear to be counter to the TOU here...

2air'
Joe, try that in english!
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:43 PM   #198
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and yet STILL no updates on the actual gumming or thumb wrestling...

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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Joe, try that in english!
The only thing that wasn't in english was TOU, or Terms Of Use spelled out all proper-like.
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:53 PM   #199
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and yet STILL no updates on the actual gumming or thumb wrestling...
Thumb wrestling is a big deal now and it takes a while to set it up.

However I feel confident now that I can give you this up date. A Lawyer will be retained in the new few weeks. Unfortunately after that there will be an additional delay in up dates while he prepares the filing.

In the mean time you might want to follow things on defendwally.org and What they are saying… « defendwally.org to get an idea of what those truely interested in this action are thinking.

http://defendwally.org/
Please bear with us
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Old 03-24-2010, 10:34 PM   #200
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I have been ask to post a copy of the email.

A growing number of WBCCI members are dissatisfied with the ongoing mismanagement of our club. We have joined together to question the fiscal irresponsibility of our club’s leadership. In 2008 there was a ($44,202) financial operating loss, which was followed in 2009 by ($43,000) financial operating loss and then a ($103,000) at the Madison International Rally totaling ($146,000) for 2009.

In July of 2009 our leadership approved an ($81,000) deficit spending budget for 2010.
At this rate of year over year losses our 55 year old Wally Byam Caravan club will soon be bankrupt ...resulting in the devastating loss of an American icon founded Airstream Caravan Club.

These atrocious failures are directly tied to a leadership that is both self-selected and is unaccountable to the membership. The membership has no real choices when it comes to who runs the WBCCI, through a system designed by leadership that assures that leadership alone will choose its successors.If these issues bother you, then there is something that we can all do about it, but it starts with what you will decide to do next.

Decades of International Leadership have created established customs that are in direct opposition to the openness and fairness you would expect from a recreational vehicle club, one which is supposed to be all about FUN.

Here are some of the changes we seek.

Fair and open election procedures

Units through their Unit Presidents must be able to nominate candidates for International office prior to Jan 1st. Thereafter, they become nominees presented to the membership equally. The current procedures allowing Delegates to nominate from the floor does not work. Units have all cast their votes for the slate prior to the Delegates Meeting, units that nominate a from-the-floor candidate has no chance of their nominee being considered by the membership.

Members in failing societies deserve competition in their choices. They deserve to have candidates tell them what they will and will not do if elected, and it is the membership that is best capable at determining who will deliver on their promises.

The current system discloses nothing about what those on the slate will do when they are elected, and offers the membership no choice to an annual track of failure.

All nominees must appear free of charge in the Blue Beret, and all nominees must be presented equally to the membership to choose from.

Financial responsibility
No organization can survive posting continual annual fiscal losses. Raising dues only makes recruitment and retention even more difficult and we've been losing members for more than 30 years. Our current leadership and their system of self-elections provide the membership with no hopes of growth and no hopes of profitability going forward.

The fact our club is a not-for-profit organization demands that it be run with a balanced budget. The $120,000 budget category that reimburses international leaders for their travel and attendance at events all across North America must be eliminated from the budget, along with the lavish travel that these leaders have set for themselves.

Due to the huge deficit spending and annual losses exceeding $100,000 we must have the option to have an audit performed by an independent certified public accountant.

Any further dues increases must be voted upon by the membership.

Grievance procedures
Our current grievance procedures as stated in the Bylaws, need to be redrafted to conform with Robert’s Rules of Order Newly Revised. At the last IBT meeting numerous individual motions about the grievance policy were combined into one motion and then addressed in a closed door session without public discussion, debate or broadcast.

The expulsion of a past Metro NY Unit President Leo Garvey is troubling. After having 3 frivolous grievances filed against him, the outcome was decided without due process of our bylaws & rules. These grievance procedures must be open, fair and transparent.

The expulsion of Leo & Gail Garvey has achieved a very specific goal for our leadership.
Leo had declared himself a candidate for International Nominating Committee for the fourth year in a row and our leadership has now successfully removed that option from you and the rest of our membership.

Open meetings
Delegate meetings must have open sessions where the units can determine the future direction of the club.

Members, through their units, must be able to amend our Bylaws directly.

Votes by the IBT that change our bylaws must hold accountability – a role call is required for one and all.

An amendment has been proposed separating the power to create bylaw changes and the power to rule such changes are constitutional.

If these are the types of changes you would like to see occur, we believe working singularly from inside is not possible. We can either continue towards the fast approaching demise of the WBCCI or we can take action to save the club by commencing a Federal Court action. A Federal Judge will review the decisions of the WBCCI along with its Constitution and Bylaws.

If you think we can make a difference, then help us accomplish this now!
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:02 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
...In July of 2009 our leadership approved an $81,000 deficit spending budget for 2010...
the approval of a negative budget is troublesome, but NOT uncommon for some years and in some budgets for some organizations.

since the club $$ chest can COVER this amount (and do so 4 several years) it is also NOT a death blow.

my understanding is that a/s corp STOPPED sending 75K$ annually to the wb'...just last year.

so having ONE year where that dramatic/sudden LOSS of 75$ with ANOTHER 6K$ of OVER spending...

isn't THAT outta line.

in fact compared to the PRIOR year loss it IS a dramatic improvement...

i think the government refers to this as an DECREASE in the loss and an IMPROVED rate of decline...
________

one could argue that a year or 2 or 3 like this...

GIVES the bobble heads time to REadjust spending, FIND new revenue streams and plug the money hole.

one of those ADjustments may be jacking the membership fee way UP...

can they do it? will they make it? who will get nicked UP in the process...

i dunno.

the CLUB has fundamentally been in financial trouble for years but without much $$ loss to reveal that trouble.

NOW the trouble matches the dough hole...
_________

member REVOLT is a good thing and should have been happening LONG ago...

when past members suggested REVOLT some suggested

"find a new place to play, we LOVE our club and every penny is WORTH it"

when the RISK of financial failure was pointed out to THOSE folks a few years ago, the reply was...

"clubs got a million buck in d'bank don't sweat it"

now those 'we love wally' folks are up in arms about the money?

money isn't the real save/defend issue, just like 1m1v was never a real initiative...

it's pretty clear to MANY watching OR staying on the sidelines that this is about a few members getting clipped.

and a LOT of public crying about it.

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:35 PM   #202
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Gene,

We have distinctly different perspectives. I respect your opinion as a former attorney. I trust you'll do the same for me as a devout non-attorney who routinely works with the legal system.

To me, this is a little like my wife suing me to make me a better a husband. She could certainly make a fair argument about my lack of fiscal responsibility, my occasionally undemocratic decision making and my insensivity to her grievances. For the sake of discussion, say my wife sues and we make it to court. Win or lose, do you think the outcome of the litigation is really going to make me a better husband? Without doubt, a protracted, internecine legal battle is going to change the relationship, but how?

There are times in legal wranglings where one can win the battle but lose the war. Rarely have I seen examples where litigation united the participants. Far more often, it drives the wedges deeper. Even if--contrary to my prediction--those challenging the WBCCI win on every possible point, what's left when the dust settles? How many people leave the WBCCI over the rift?

The legal system, Gene, is better than many of its critics think, but worse than many of its proponents will admit. It does something things well, albeit slowly and often at great expense. It can imprison and free, punish and reward, but it cannot change the human heart.
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:52 PM   #203
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So far the WBCCI is more like a shrimp.
The body is pretty good... but the head needs to be cut off... then a little bit of accommodement to finish the recipe.

May be the court can be a good cook...
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Old 03-25-2010, 02:17 PM   #204
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Quote:
now those 'we love wally' folks are up in arms about the money?

money isn't the real save/defend issue, just like 1m1v was never a real initiative...
I have always thought the dues were too high at the International level for what the general membership gets in return. Obviously unit dues renders much higher value and member satisfaction while the International level of club dues allows the elite to fare much more advantageously than mere members experience for their time, effort and money.

1M1V and MALS, also, have always been a priority of mine, but then I am only one individual, but then so we all are individuals here.

I think LIPets has asked you why you have such great opposition. It is not simply asking for pledges. And frankly even if this was singularly about helping Leo after he has tried to represent and volunteer so much time and effort to the club in research and trying to run for candidacy and making the unit guide and writing articles and submitting photos that appeared in the BB and so many other initiatives such as always encouraging membership drive, what is your objection to that?
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Old 03-25-2010, 02:28 PM   #205
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Bob and Howie, great letter!!! I think you have hit on the issues very well and I think folks will view it as informative and positive. I can't see why it "Bugs" anyone but I guess there is always someone out there that's gonna be mad as a March hare.
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Old 03-25-2010, 03:41 PM   #206
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...what is your objection to that?
no objection here to any wb' member doing anything relative to the wb'...

good/bad/conforming/nonconforming/rebellious/praise/whatever...

the issue is SOLICITING $$$funds$$$ HERE.

or REDIRECTS to another site SOLICITING $$$funds$$$...

any1 of us might have a PET PROJECT and wanna raise awareness or SOLICIT financial support.

but that's NOT supposed to be allowed here for ANY project/cause/club...

or local bunch of about to be EX members of the wb' who's LONG term plan has backfired...
__________

can i raise money here for the neighbor kid with leukemia?

he's clearly deserving and IN NEED of support.

how about to pay MY winter gas bill?

it's a whopper!

please don't let me FREEZE next year, i only need 1$ from a few 100 good 'streamer folks...
______________

in an earlier post you wrote this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
...Those that have been driven mad from these threads on the club forum, save yourselves and avert your eyes.

There is tastier fish for you to fry elsewhere.

Don't torture yourselves with heroic efforts to subvert.

We have been shouted down many times over and we still have a place to post.

Deal with it.
yeah well i am DEALING with it.

and if that means posting to REMIND that SOLICITING money and REDIRECTs are in poor taste...

and against the rulz here...

that's what will be the dealing...

the mods HAVE removed posts from this thread and HAVE deleted other thread or combined them into this one...

i realize they are TRYING to give everyone a fair SHAKE and allow SOME action in this thread.

and appreciate the dance they do in that regard.

but THERE HAS BEEN NO ACTION, NO UPDATE, NO PROGRESS of ANY sort...

MONEY is being raised and WHEN the pot is full somethin' might happen.
__________

so IF the only posts were "here's where we are on the legal action..."

that would be nice and would actually BE an update.
__________

instead we get "new website, new stuff to read OVER HERE...."

and send us some money "over here"....
__________

no of us OPPOSED to the regular NON updates, site redirects and soliciting of $$$funds$$$...

have to 'avert our eyes', save ourselves or risk torture...

and we are not shouting in our OPPOSITION to MISusing this site for personal gains ELSEWHERE...

and it is HUGELY ironic that a few people think MISUSING this site to get money is OK and rightous...

so they can SUE the wb' club leadership for MISUSING the club to SPEND money.


so yeah there is still a place to post here...

u deal with 'dat!



cheers
2air'
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Old 03-25-2010, 04:15 PM   #207
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This thread is about solicitation of funds, as are the letters we are receiving in our personal email accounts, and there is still no plan for funding this for years IF AND WHEN enough money is raised to simply BEGIN.

It is disingenuous, at least.

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Old 03-25-2010, 05:42 PM   #208
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This thread is about solicitation of funds, as are the letters we are receiving in our personal email accounts, and there is still no plan for funding this for years IF AND WHEN enough money is raised to simply BEGIN.

It is disingenuous, at least.

Maggie
Moderator hat on:
The original post is about the proposal/details of a lawsuit and not specifically about soliciting funds. While some latitude has been allowed in this thread and some other content moved into this thread, AIRs intent is for sharing knowledge - not soliciting funds. The OP was cautious about this when posting and we ask that other posters are as well. We are still trying to find some balance on this issue and are mindful about boundaries being pushed too far.
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:21 PM   #209
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Gene,

We have distinctly different perspectives. I respect your opinion as a former attorney. I trust you'll do the same for me as a devout non-attorney who routinely works with the legal system.

To me, this is a little like my wife suing me to make me a better a husband. She could certainly make a fair argument about my lack of fiscal responsibility, my occasionally undemocratic decision making and my insensivity to her grievances. For the sake of discussion, say my wife sues and we make it to court. Win or lose, do you think the outcome of the litigation is really going to make me a better husband? Without doubt, a protracted, internecine legal battle is going to change the relationship, but how?

There are times in legal wranglings where one can win the battle but lose the war. Rarely have I seen examples where litigation united the participants. Far more often, it drives the wedges deeper. Even if--contrary to my prediction--those challenging the WBCCI win on every possible point, what's left when the dust settles? How many people leave the WBCCI over the rift?

The legal system, Gene, is better than many of its critics think, but worse than many of its proponents will admit. It does something things well, albeit slowly and often at great expense. It can imprison and free, punish and reward, but it cannot change the human heart.
Hamp', your analogy is not quite on point as I see it. An intimate relationship such as a marriage is not the same as the relationships between a club and its members. But if your point is that litigation causes rifts that are difficult, if not impossible to heal, that is often true. However, when business's sue each other, it's just a business decision and the companies may get along fine afterwards, so there's another, very different, analogy.

Many times litigation does result in some sort of "victory", but the price can be high. Some people sue out of anger and it may be displaced anger (anger at someone else long ago directed at someone or something in the present) or being treated unfairly (a more valid anger coming from unfair treatment). Angry clients can be very bad clients, but they also may have a valid case. Most lawyers try to avoid Borderline or psychotic clients, but you just don't always know what they may turn out to be. And sometimes it just the only way to resolve a dispute. Sometimes filing a lawsuit is the only way to get the other guy to hear you—like the donkey and the 2 x 4.

I think a good lawyer tries to talk clients out of needless lawsuits, or direct them to a less painful strategy.

I think many lawyers are concerned with the costs of the legal system. In the '90's, around 80% of marital dissolution cases in the Denver area were done by the parties without lawyers. Mostly, they couldn't afford lawyers. But they often had to hire lawyers later to straighten out the mess they had created. It's very hard to practice law without high office expenses and I have no good solution to that, but that is what drives legal fees as much as anything.

50 years or so ago there was a movement to bring out all the facts before a dispute went to trial. The discovery system was invented to allow the parties to exchange all the information beforehand and to take extensive depositions. It was thought that would prevent many trials, save money and provide a fair result. But it hasn't always worked that way and some lawyers abuse the process by demanding expensive, extensive, endless discovery. By the end of the '90's the Colorado Supreme Court tried to stop that abuse by limiting discovery a lot, though I am unsure how that has worked out since I retired shortly after (I am not a "former" lawyer, but a retired one—still have my license but am rapidly becoming obsolete).

I don't know the intent of the potential plaintiffs in the WBCCI dispute. Maybe what they want is what they say (sometimes cynicism is a bad approach)—to improve the fiscal situation of the club. Maybe they want to force improvement in governance. Maybe they want to stimulate a revolt of members and force out the present leadership. All are valid goals on their face. I have no doubt it will get ugly, but ugly, as unpleasant as it is, may be better managed by logical, dispassionate lawyers than the parties themselves. Most any lawyer will tell you they'd rather negotiate with another lawyer than a pro se party who is emotionally involved in the outcome. There's also saying, perhaps a truism, a judge told me (not about me): "bad clients hire bad lawyers". Every case is different.

Gene
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Old 03-25-2010, 08:10 PM   #210
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Quote:
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This thread is about solicitation of funds, as are the letters we are receiving in our personal email accounts, and there is still no plan for funding this for years IF AND WHEN enough money is raised to simply BEGIN.

It is disingenuous, at least. Maggie
Baloney, there is a plan perhaps you need to reread that email?
If your interest was genuine you would not be making these uniformed posts.
There was a link in that email for more info did you seek any additional info?

We had a good response from that email todate so the if and when is becoming yes and soon!

-----------------

Gene, the key factor that the supporters are counting on in this action is settled case law on the issues.

Many, many clubs have crossed this threshold before and lost.

We are not in uncharted waters.


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