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Old 03-17-2010, 08:52 PM   #169
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Lynn ...
You are a hard man to please. You don't want open discussion on the Forum. You don't want correspondence between members. ...
Ah ... not. (But I don't like mass spam mailings in any event.)

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Old 03-17-2010, 08:57 PM   #170
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Lynn why would you make the assumption it was a mass spam e-mail because you were sent an e-mail?
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:16 PM   #171
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Lynn why would you make the assumption it was a mass spam e-mail because you were sent an e-mail?
Because of the way in which it was worded. I received one also, did you, Carol?

I have not signed up at DefendWally only SaveWally.

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Old 03-17-2010, 09:20 PM   #172
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I read it before it was sent to you and Lynn. Did you not care for the wording? I thought it was a good e-mail. Yes the Save Wally supporters are who were contacted. It's no wonder the letter of introduction to Defend Wally is new. That was the point of the e-mail. Is there anything you would add or subtract to the message? Were you offended or find something objectionable in asking if you support these things since you once supported some of the things? In my opinion you and Lynn are definitely parties of interest and we have talked through the forums, heck we have talked in person so I don't think that is blanket mass spam.

Of course your wishes would be respected. Simply respond to the e-mail to receive no further e-mails or alerts if that is what you would like. You have only received the e-mail because you previously signed up. We apologize for your inconvenience and have appreciated your support.
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:48 PM   #173
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I read it before it was sent to you and Lynn. Did you not care for the wording? I thought it was a good e-mail. Yes the Save Wally supporters are who were contacted. It's no wonder the letter of introduction to Defend Wally is new. That was the point of the e-mail. Is there anything you would add or subtract to the message? Were you offended or find something objectionable in asking if you support these things since you once supported some of the things? In my opinion you and Lynn are definitely parties of interest and we have talked through the forums, heck we have talked in person so I don't think that is blanket mass spam.

Of course your wishes would be respected. Simply respond to the e-mail to receive no further e-mails or alerts if that is what you would like. You have only received the e-mail because you previously signed up. We apologize for your inconvenience and have appreciated your support.
Carol,

I have no problem with the wording, my comment was directed to the question as to why I knew that it was a blanket email.

As you and Leo know, I support what Leo and SaveWally are trying to accomplish. The leadership knows my position, I have told them many times. I have had a couple of good conversations with Don Clark as well, and he knows where I stand.

Leo, you know that my eyes are wide open. I want this club to continue for another 50 years. We have made many friends in WBCCI and would not have met them any other way.

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Old 03-18-2010, 12:09 AM   #174
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Hmmm,, We got the Defend Wally email as well. Over the past year, since the Yensen/Baker ballyhoo after Interantional, I have lost major interest in this forum and others because of the politics, and chest banging. I very rarely take a look let alone participate anymore. I make this exception, since the email arrived today.
Why are we SOOOO worried about the IBT members? They come, and they go, and So What, if they are self-perpetuating. They'll all die-off eventually. The club is not a country, or a Devine entity, and the IBT members have NO real power in the scheme of the world. The WBCCI is just a camping club where we should enjoy our airstreams and each other's company plain and simple. Ya, I know this has been said before.
One unit against unit, region against region, members against members, and member against Officers. All we have to do is look over our shoulders. and we see how well our National government is working!
IMHO, any litigation will only hurt WBCCI members and continue the erosion of the club into obscurity!
I don't think we all want this, but a time will come when it will be too big to stop.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:02 AM   #175
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Thanks for your comments. I agree eventually they will die off and it isn't that I do care how the IBT wants to do their thing as much as it seems that what they are doing is interferring with what members will have to be doing, such as paying more and more dues without gaining benefits for general members, and events becoming more and more expensive perhaps pricing a "quantity of non-quality members" (that would be the past PIPs terminology not mine) from attending with the vast majority of benefit going to events planned for not the general membership but for special comittees and officers, or not being able to get a candidate on the roster to run without the nominating committee's choosing.

That last point might need clarifying. One year when Leo ran for office, units were not given proper voting instructions in regard to being able to vote for a candidate other than those nominated by the committee. Leo asked that the error be corrected. The error was acknowledged but no correction was made until the International Rally when it was too late for members to have voted for him. That was one instance. Another intentional and obstructionist instance to consider was when candidates could post in the Blue Beret but then Leo could not because it was too costly and IBT wanted to cut costs and be responsible so candidates had to pay for their own space as a new change. Then Leo paid and though he was working closely on a daily basis with Cindy R. at headquarters and Cindy said it was not too late to put the ad in the BB, the IP then said Leo had missed the cut off date. What do you feel about that?

Now since Bob T.and Leo G. have been trying to run from the floor grievances started to pop up. Bob T. was able to get the committee to overturn and reinstate him into the club but only after being turned away without prior notice right at the region rally he helped to plan. An apology was recommened to be made in the BB and it never was. Leo contested his grievance and it was dismissed. Then next year they made a grievance and gave him probation onto the dismissed grievance.Third strike was when Leo contacted all the IBT with his defense and facts and was expelled. Brievity precludes going into each case and representing proofs but Leo is not guilty of any offenses besides speaking out and making an irrate IBT or EC7.

These are only some of the reasons that I can think of off hand right now, but believe me, there are so many more injustices and against others as well. Myself, I was banned from the WBCCI forum without even ever accessing it since it was made "new" as were others. After I contacted the IP I got access but had a malicious script put on my IP address to make access slow and impossible called a miserable users hack for administrators to use against their "problem" members. I was not the only one. More emails with the IP and that was cleared up. What do you think about that kind of activity?

Well meaning members have spent countless hours in volunteerism and trying to effect change from within only to be met with behavior unbefitting our club's leadership.

If we were not to fight it our options would be to ignore it or to walk away or in Leo's case to accept being done away with through no fault of his own. In my case, those aren't viable options to answer your question of why I would care what the IBT does.
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Old 03-18-2010, 07:09 AM   #176
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Even if everything 65GT and Wheel Interested has said is right, what is the legal claim you would ask the court to redress? And what would be the remedy sought? Just because something is unfair, lousy or dumb doesn't make it illegal.

I don't understand the interest in court, when you can accomplish everything you want in the free and open market. Listen, the WBCCI is already dying. The membership has dropped from what, nearly 30,000 to around 7,000? They are apparently running in the red. If you want to accelerate the change process, why not just boycott them? Polish off the red numbers. Turn in the blue beret. Withhold your dues or simply quit. Better yet, coordinate a boycott where you and your allies refuse to do business with any commercial vendor who supports the WBCCI or advertises in the Blue Beret. Do a parody web page. Break away as a unit or join other clubs. There are a thousand ways to put pressure on the organization.

Win or lose in court, you aren't going to change the WBCCI into what you want. So, you can either make want you want for yourselves or wait until the WBCCI is tottering on the edge of ruin, sweep in and take the club over. I wish you well, but I suspect many people--like me--have an Airstream to go camping and have fun... not do in our spare time what we do in real life, i.e., change organizations.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:25 AM   #177
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Even if everything 65GT and Wheel Interested has said is right, what is the legal claim you would ask the court to redress? And what would be the remedy sought? Just because something is unfair, lousy or dumb doesn't make it illegal.
The case law say otherwise, I will not go into details publicly.

You too can do a Goggle search.

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I don't understand the interest in court, when you can accomplish everything you want in the free and open market.
Been there done that the IBT is an elitist group all others are MERE members.
That's a quote.

Quote:
They are apparently running in the red. If you want to accelerate the change process, why not just boycott them? Polish off the red numbers. Turn in the blue beret. Withhold your dues or simply quit. Better yet, coordinate a boycott where you and your allies refuse to do business with any commercial vendor who supports the WBCCI or advertises in the Blue Beret. Do a parody web page. Break away as a unit or join other clubs. There are a thousand ways to put pressure on the organization.
So you're advocating run the club's $775K liquid asset in to the ground, let the leaders burn the money.......heck most won't be around to see it go bankrupt.

Sorry can't let that happen, it's our club not theirs.
We as members have a right to the 55 year old heritage, if there are enough mere members that agree the pledges will come in on defendwally.org.

Quote:
Win or lose in court, you aren't going to change the WBCCI into what you want.
Time will tell, It's 'TIME FOR A CHANGE'

Join the effort to save the club from financial ruin and ineffective leadership,

One last point does the club have true leadership?
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:51 AM   #178
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Guess I have missed alot not reading these posts. I Do like Leo and wish things were otherwise, but we know who owns the ball and court.
Well, here's an idea.

At International in Gillette, when we have the open forum of members to speak to the Board, why don't we all stand up when one of our own speaks, to show solidarity and following any Robert's rule or the such that applies and let the group speak thru a single spokesman. Tell them face to face, things have to change. At Perry when Jim Franklin lambasted Shari Davis, I wished I had stood up beside her, but was so dumbfounded at Franklins remarks, I couldn't move. Hindsight.

Or, do what Congress does and filibuster in unison so we are heaard and the public address system is useless to the Board.

This maybe out of order, but if your going to do something, then do something revolutionary.
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:11 AM   #179
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Jim great idea, except that location is not drawing a big crowd it in the middle of a dust bowl, and it's $550. Great deal in a resession with gas prices at what they are.
Last count was about 700.

A group of members tried to speak at Perry, they walked away with the mike.

What do you do now stand and yell.

Assuming arguendo, you speak, do you think they will say ok we agree let's make those changes!

I wish it was that simple, the inner circle is so tightly knit they are only going to abide by a Judges Order, not us mere members.

Remember Leo spoke up, exposed the mis management, they developed a conspiracy to expel him.

The inner circle of good 'ol boys decided to kick him out. and said "(Collier)" if he wins his appeal we all ready have a 4th grievance ready to file"

So your spokesperson as soon as he or she speaks will be expelled...............

At this point the better option is let a Court decide the issues presented by the MERE members.

The case law in similar clubs is favoring that this can and will be done your support

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Old 03-18-2010, 11:18 AM   #180
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Those are great ideas! That would be very impressive! Yes I had forgotten about what Shari was put through at that IBT meeting. That was so totally uncalled for. I wonder if it was also Jim Franklin that called Renee Etlinger on the carpet telling her that her committee report of Communications Liason was impossible to accept because comments from members from the internet or e-mail could not be verified as authentic.I seem to recall other IBT smack downs that have completely taken members at the podium before the alter of IBT by surprise and became insulting and egregious to the speakers' dismay. How about that Roy MacDonald ambush at the past Mid-Winter IBT meeting? Or when Franklin stood up and told all the IBT to show some gall and just raise the dues and forget all the sniveling and whining...My God we drive the most expensive units on the road. (paraphrased)This PIP has called for quality members rather than quantity. And I do believe he is the originator of the first round of grievances against members that was dismissed...
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:29 AM   #181
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Just to be a bug in their soup, I am trying to convince Chris (my partner in crime), and 024 Unit Prez, that we should do President's Parking in Gillette until the VAC Parade. .
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:31 AM   #182
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... At Perry when Jim Franklin lambasted Shari Davis...
If it would have been the other way around, a grievance would have been filled up against her...
But in that case nothing happened, or would have happened... some members are "more equal".

You can say wathever you want... it won't make any difference.

The club is already in trouble.

I think people that have a problem with the current action need to understand that the action is intended to save the 50 years old club.
I myself don't understand how some have something to say against that. It's the dictatorship that is killing the club, not Leo and the ones that want to act!

It is that simple. Anyhow it seems simple to me.
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