Thor Corp Having POSSIBLE INFLUENCE OVER WBCCI?

[2airishuman]

hi stef......

sure the club has to answer.......it has to answer to declining membership, declining dealer support, leading to less revenue to operate, and climbing operating costs....

they cannot even get local units to agree to a small dues increase to pay for needed things as it is.....

the only issue they (the wbcci) seem to be risking, to me, is having the club name.....
tied to the prosperity of airstream......
and the agreement says they can get out in 3 months?.......if they choose to?

so i suppose if the airstream brand goes under.......
a club named airstream might be hurt.......or would it......?

ever heard of the studebaker owners club or the edsel owners club or the vixen owners club or ........any of hundreds of clubs named for defunct brands.......

there is an issue (besides how badly the wbcci seems to operate).....
and it is an issue that hasn't been mentioned relating to the the name change......but i think may be at the core for some......of the angry folks...

and that issue is the how does the company interface with owners of vintage airstreams.....

when the company's primary business is selling new airstreams......
how best do they relate to vintage owners.......
some of whom think they should get free service, or big discounts, or automatic upgrades....and so on......

and i am not referring to anyone here.......but plenty of owners think airstream should fix or solve issues regardless of the warranty or trailer age.....

for any ongoing brand.......relating to owners of older models....of anything....is usually a 'no win' proposition........

in reality.... the safest, cheapest, easiest involvement the company could have with the club........would be NONE.......

a few days ago.....i posted the 1992 combined issue wbcci/caraVanner....

and in it was noted that airstream had agreed to underwrite (PAY) the publishing costs for the wbcci......

back in 1992....the bb was being paid for by thor/airstream?....did anyone read that?

how long did that go on?

does anyone know how much cash a/s has directed toward the wbcci over the years.....

so the notion that the club is somehow independent now...is really limited by club revenue...

i agree with you regarding the statement tim champ made about how the company relates to the club...and vintage owners......
but it was spoken by someone who got that one point right, without the wisdom to understand longterm relationships, company good will and how those issues all work together......knowing only the one fact (and saying out loud) just revealed his lack of wisdom....

no i wouldn't want tim approving wbcci club ideas......
but first the club has gotta have some ideas.....right?

and when did we last hear from tim here?.......someone wiser than he... has a muzzle....

cheers
2air'

and please keep in mind.....i'm not pro club or pro company....
and i do like us thinking aloud about this issue.....i know it is important......

gosh this thread is civil...
so far.....

[rgesch]

To All of you who have responded to my thread I truely thank you. I agree and you all have helped me a great deal to understand the process. I think I always understood the issue and that has been for the years I have been in the club (6yrs.) I have been an observer and felt we were far removed from the fun of travel and adventure and caught up with receptions, clothing, and other things.

You input has been of trememdous help and I have learned a great deal from your comments. Thank you all so much. We as a group have power and this forum has made this possible. In the past this kind of things would have just slide by. Thank goodness for the oportunity to communitcate.

Robin

[rgesch]

2air,

Thanks, for the reply, the letter I received is was from WBCCI in Jackson Center and the "Con: 2 " I mentioned is a direct quote from that letter which is now posted on our website. Up until this point like you I hadn't seen anything "evil" in the contract either but as you pointed out it had a negative tone so I just thought I missed something, OR did not have enough background in trademark agreements to be sure so I used to forum for feedback. I am very pleased to have so many people respond. It is exactly what I wanted. A debate, an examination of facts, etc. Many heads are better than one.

I really appreciate your imput. You know as a leader you really do need to listen to all sides of a story I just didn't feel I was understanding it. I do think the name change is a waste of money we have been using the name WBCCI the Airstream RV Association as long as I can remember so why pay for it now? AND when I first heard all about this at Int.l 2004 it was in relationship to declining members and I stand firm in my analysis of the survey and information directly within my unit. It's the way we act as a club, exclusive, receptions, dinners, clothing, that's turning the young off. Look around the young generation are biking, hiking and more physical that's why sneakers cost over $100.00 when we use to by keds for 89 cents. I'm not interested in traveling 3600miles to sit in a meeting to decide how we should fly flags. LOL

[LuminumTraila]

rgesch -- Thanks to YOU for bringing this information to us.

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

and when did we last hear from tim here?.......someone wiser than he... has a muzzle....

2air -- I just picked up a 2006 Airstream sales brochure and found this blurb about WBCCI inside next to a picture of older trailers with the red numbers on them: "The Wally Byam Caravan Club International has been an embodiment and promoter of the Airstream lifestyle, its members living dreams of freedom and adventure all around the world." A bit of a change from what Tim Champ once spouted. Indeed, someone found the muzzle!

But notice that even the company understands WBCCI's purpose is to promote the "Airstream lifestyle" (my emphasis), not the product. The 75th Anniversary brochure has a nice piece on the company's history and Wally's legend; it doesn't look like they have any problem with explaining who Wally Byam is to Airstreaming and why he's an Airstream icon. So why should the WBCCI membership have a problem with that? WBCCI is the club of Airstreaming people and the Airstreaming lifestyle, founded by Wally Byam; Thor makes Airstreams, first introduced to the world by Wally Byam, for Airstreaming people. Separate organizations, separate purposes, separate names, joined forever by history. It's not that hard.

[LuminumTraila]

Originally Posted by rgesch

I'm not interested in traveling 3600miles to sit in a meeting to decide how we should fly flags. LOL

Can't get any clearer than that! Well put, rgesch!

-J

[rgesch]

HEAR, HEAR !!!!

Just can't say it better than that! I'm ready to come out fighting for NO NAME CHANGE!!!!!

I't the people IN the Airstreams that's important and making the club work for them!!!!!!

Thanks So Very Much for all the reply's EVERYONES opionion is important regardless where you stand on the issue.

Robn

Originally Posted by dougjamie

rgesch -- Thanks to YOU for bringing this information to us.



2air -- I just picked up a 2006 Airstream sales brochure and found this blurb about WBCCI inside next to a picture of older trailers with the red numbers on them: "The Wally Byam Caravan Club International has been an embodiment and promoter of the Airstream lifestyle, its members living dreams of freedom and adventure all around the world." A bit of a change from what Tim Champ once spouted. Indeed, someone found the muzzle!

But notice that even the company understands WBCCI's purpose is to promote the "Airstream lifestyle" (my emphasis), not the product. The 75th Anniversary brochure has a nice piece on the company's history and Wally's legend; it doesn't look like they have any problem with explaining who Wally Byam is to Airstreaming and why he's an Airstream icon. So why should the WBCCI membership have a problem with that? WBCCI is the club of Airstreaming people and the Airstreaming lifestyle, founded by Wally Byam; Thor makes Airstreams, first introduced to the world by Wally Byam, for Airstreaming people. Separate organizations, separate purposes, separate names, joined forever by history. It's not that hard.

[cooperhawk]

2air, you continue to amaze me. I used to read your posts for the humor and now I read them for the WISDOM??

You have put forth a really rational and logical explanation of the issue.

Are you really in reality Mr. Spock?? Quite Logical!!

Is the Enterprise docked just outside of Earth Orbit??

I too see no threat in changing the name. I also don't think it is worth all the rhetoric that is being exchanged. I once was put into a 2 week seminar to learn (synergy). That means that when we all work together as one, the output is more than the expected output of the sum of all working independantly. In other words, by working together we could accomplish a lot more. I also learned that some folks like to debate for the sake of it.

I think this issue is not worth all the rhetoric that we have expended. We have bigger issues we need to solve.

1. How to enlarge the club.
2. Streamlining the Administration of the club.
3. How to change the club to more readily meet the needs and desires of younger members.

I could go on. I would rather see more discussions by these same very intelligent and articulate folks on other more pertinent subjects. I'll bet we could do a lot to keep the club vigorous and growing.

[Silvertwinkie]

Given the conversations of a national forum type rally, and the possibility of it happening, let alone the successful local forum type rally gatherings, it may make the whole WBCCI thing moot.

[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Given the conversations of a national forum type rally, and the possibility of it happening, let alone the successful local forum type rally gatherings, it may make the whole WBCCI thing moot.

Oh really, how many forum rallies a year and how many WBCCI rallies a year? The nearest forum rally to me in the last two years is 300 miles, the nearest WBCCI rally 20 miles.

Bill

[wheel interested]

Jim, If you don't think reading a letter released to the unit presidents directly from WBCCI headquarters is important enough to give it more thought and rhetoric, just how could that level of involvement help you make other changes in the club? Working together as one does not mean disavowing your co-members viewpoint on important vote issues. This is the way the club works, this is what we have learned, this is how we are starting. I must have missed the big push you are promoting on other more pertinent changes but this is the change at hand now. Not pertinent??. And why do you think the passionate people promoting a no vote for a name change would not continue to try to make other changes if it proves out that members can make a difference? Are you confusing synergy with conformity?

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by cooperhawk

I think this issue is not worth all the rhetoric that we have expended. We have bigger issues we need to solve.

1. How to enlarge the club.
2. Streamlining the Administration of the club.
3. How to change the club to more readily meet the needs and desires of younger members.

I could go on. I would rather see more discussions by these same very intelligent and articulate folks on other more pertinent subjects. I'll bet we could do a lot to keep the club vigorous and growing.

I do not disagree with you that there are bigger issues for WBCCI to address, but I do not agree that this issue is not worth the rhetotic it is receiving. The unfortunate thing is that WBCCI leadership has decided to address the name of the club rather that those bigger issues. Until this issue is resolved it will continue to get the bulk of the discussion. And quite frankly, the proposed name appears be actually be turning off many of those younger folks that it is purported to attract, so it may have opposite of the desired effect. I certainly expect a number of current members will quit the club if this name change passes. Unfortunate, but true.

[cooperhawk]

Originally Posted by 66Overlander

And quite frankly, the proposed name appears be actually be turning off many of those younger folks that it is purported to attract, so it may have opposite of the desired effect. I certainly expect a number of current members will quit the club if this name change passes. Unfortunate, but true.

I believe that younger potential members are turned away by the rhetoric going on and some of the old rituals. Not by the name change issue. I also feel some members will quit the club whichever way the name goes. Don't you. Heck, I'm even thinking of quitting and I don't even give a rip what name is used. Personally, I wouldn't want to go to a rally and be exposed to some of the intense pro or con rhetoric. Who needs it.
Life is too short to get this upset about such and insignificant thing.

I hadn't posted on this subject for quite a while, and I expect to be savaged and will now let it go again. Just my two cents worth.

[LuminumTraila]

Originally Posted by 66Overlander

I do not disagree with you that there are bigger issues for WBCCI to address, but I do not agree that this issue is not worth the rhetotic it is receiving. The unfortunate thing is that WBCCI leadership has decided to address the name of the club rather that those bigger issues. Until this issue is resolved it will continue to get the bulk of the discussion.

I agree with 66Overlander. The discussion is focused on the name change because that is the issue at hand. No matter how the vote goes, the broader issues will not be dropped, especially by those who now see what might happen to the club if the members just sit idly by and let an out-of-touch leadershop body take the reins and run the club into the ground. The name issue is certainly an eye opener to the deeper problems, but I don't see how that makes it a non-issue.

[wheel interested]

Originally Posted by cooperhawk

I believe that younger potential members are turned away by the rhetoric going on and some of the old rituals. Not by the name change issue. I also feel some members will quit the club whichever way the name goes. Don't you. Heck, I'm even thinking of quitting and I don't even give a rip what name is used. Personally, I wouldn't want to go to a rally and be exposed to some of the intense pro or con rhetoric. Who needs it.
Life is too short to get this upset about such and insignificant thing.

I hadn't posted on this subject for quite a while, and I expect to be savaged and will now let it go again. Just my two cents worth.

I don't understand. You don't care about the name change you don't want to go to a rally and you are considering quitting but you do feel strongly enough to come out against those who care and are in the club. What is your motivation? May I ask what really has turned you from a member to a fence sitter, and please don't say it's this rhetoric.

In the rallies I have attended there has been zero rhetoric for the main populous, it's all about meeting with others, getting in line for ice cream and unusual entertainment. Ah but here's where the club could use your suggestions for change.

[47WeeWind]

Originally Posted by 65GT

I read that agreement differently than most. It appears that additional licensing agreements are required to produce merchandise. We should really get a look at a few of these other agreements. That would be worthwhile for everyone to see. .... It would be nice for someone to come forward and detail those agreements and experiences. __

Ask and you shall receive! Well, partially at least. I just posted on the WBCCI web site discussion board my 10 reasons to vote against the Name Change Proposal. Look here:

http://www.wbcci.org/Forum/viewmessa...row=11&erow=20

It's under Other, WBCCI or AOAI, on page 2. Those interested can peek; those who aren't can ignore. I hope my post on the WBCCI web site generates some discussion and dialogue over there. If you see benefits in the proposed Licensing Agreement, please bring them to my attention. Thanks,

[Van]

Originally Posted by 65GT

Free memberships don't work. AS just proved that over the last few years. You've got fence sitters here that claim they've been fence sitters for years. They're not going to become members. People that join often join because they think they should join. If they have to debate it for YEARS then they're better off not joining. You'd hate to have to top off years of internal debate with disappointment.

I dont think that is the case at all. I know in our case a free membership would make all the difference. Even if it is only a one or two year waiver of the dues. There are reasons to join and reasons not to join but imo the name of the club isnt one of them. Frankly i dont care what the name is. If i bought a new trailer or used trailer and approached the club and they offered me a free membership i would take it. The name is irrelevant.

At that point since it isnt costing me anything i could work to change the club to appeal to a younger crowd. Not that $70-$100 is a lot but it is enough to keep me from joining when the demographics of the club and its general direction isnt something i am interested in or have anything in common with.

[47WeeWind]

Originally Posted by 65GT

You do surprise! Karma coming your way!! Rats -- I've been blocked from giving you Karma! I've got some work to do... __

Hummmnnn, looks like you might have to establish an undeground Karma railroad to sneak those K points past the K-blockade. Anyway, when you get it figured out, or time solves the Karmalemma, that would be Karmariffic!

Fred

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by wkerfoot

Oh really, how many forum rallies a year and how many WBCCI rallies a year? The nearest forum rally to me in the last two years is 300 miles, the nearest WBCCI rally 20 miles.

Bill

Bill, my comments were in terms where the .org is heading.

At the rate WBCCI is going, there might not be a club left in 5-10 years--- and a name change isn't going to attract the number of younger Streams in my age group to fill the losses. You'll most likely have local splinters that remain, but the .org as we know it today, if change is not embraced from within first from the top down, my point is that the forum rallys might soon outnumber International type events. All future tense, not present or what the local folks do, now or in the future.

Keep in mind I could be wrong. However, when former officers from local groups are talking about the problems, and how they ran into nothing but resistance to change and a number of moderate WBCCI supporter are talking of departing, and the deperate move of a total name change and the hint that Thor may have a bigger influence on the club, the math as the robot said "does not compute".

It'd be cool if the need to be a WBCCI member to be a member of VAC would disappear. VAC for the most part has their act together. I'd bet VAC's numbers would skyrocket if you didn't have to be a WBCCI member.

[47WeeWind]

Originally Posted by Van

... I know in our case a free membership would make all the difference ... since it isnt costing me anything i could work to change the club to appeal to a younger crowd. Not that $70-$100 is a lot but it is enough to keep me from joining when the demographics of the club and its general direction isnt something i am interested in or have anything in common with.

Van:

Your statement tells me you haven't yet been to a Vintage Airstream Club Rally, the crazy uncle intraclub of the WBCCI. Age, properly viewed, is a mental state, not a chronological imperative (or impairative for some). We're some of the most mental people you'll ever meet, so hitch up that Argosy and visit a VAC Rally some time for mostly unstructured fun without oatmeal.

[Stefrobrts]

Gosh, $80 is a lot to me, and if they raised it to $100 I don't think I would pay it. I like the club, but really, it's a $25 club to me, just like my mustang club or miata club. After all, you pay rally fees for activities, you buy your own lunch at luncheons, what do I get back for that $80 but the opportunity to participate?

That's my point. If it's already necessary for the national club to charge so much for dues, what is that money used for, and is a name change the best use of MY money? No!

Free memberships DO work, I got in on the last year of free memberships for new owners. They almost lost me that first year because I joined in April and in two months they started hitting me up for next year's dues. I refused to pay and held out until November, the last possible time I could pay and still get in the book. Every year I still pay in October.

I know of another ASer who got the exact same treatment, got in an email war with someone in the club about it and left and never came back. And he's a good guy, just thinks the club should treat new members better than that.

$80 IS a LOT of money - that's four nights at a state park. Thats a couple nice dinners out. I have to think long and hard before I plunk down $80. I would hope the leaders of the club would do the same before they plunk down thousands on as questionable a venture as this name change.