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Old 03-18-2006, 10:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janet
I would love to see a calculation of the cost of a name change - not just the cash cost - but the volunteer hours as well...

How many of you edit newsletters or write websites for WBCCI units? I just put up a new site for the Oregon unit - I am NOT looking forward to redesigning the site template because the name and logo change....

BTW - Kudos to the AS Forums for housing the site on their servers!
I semi-volunteered to create a Region 4 web site late last year, but the possibility of the club name changing to AOAI sapped all energy from me so I never followed up on it. And yet I strongly feel that one of the things WBCCI needs is a stronger, more up to date (in both terms of design and available information) web presence. Each Region, if not each Unit, should have a good web site. Luckily in my case, the Region 4 President just started a web site (http://www.region4wbcci.com/), so we've finally got the ball moving here.

Still, I know creating web sites is not easy business. I feel for those of you that would be faced with making these changes. I too wonder if the Name Change Committee considered these types of impacts that may not be measured in dollars, but instead are measured in perhaps hundreds volunteer hours?
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Old 03-18-2006, 10:52 PM   #16
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Do the math

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
But seriously, I'd rather spend $21k on free memberships for new members to build the club back up.
I have been watching this and I don't understand the $21K number. In the motion posted by rgesch it mentions $21,300 for the club. It also mentions $452 per unit. 144 units x $452 = $65,088. If the regions cost the same as a unit that would be another $5424. The total looks like $91,812 to me.
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Old 03-18-2006, 10:57 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by rgesch
The part I found perplexing is as follows:
Con: 2. A logo and name licesnse agreement with Thor Corp appears to enable Thor to have the possibility of undesired influence or control over our Club.Robin
hi robin.....

thanks for posting this and for your tireless volunteer work as an officer...

in your post, are you refering to the usage agreement as published in the denver unit news letter?....

i just read it a couple of times.....and don't see any red flags....and only a minimum of protection for thor/airstream regarding their property...the name airstream, images and so on...

basically it says the wb club must use the name (a/s) and trademark in a way that isn't bad for the company.....

and that the way the wb has used it's own name and trademark over these last 50 years.....is the barometer of good usage....

and that from time to time the company may request samples in use to monitor this.....

that is about the loosest, easiest, nonrestrictive guideline, for this sort of thing, i've ever seen....really

so basically if the club formerly known as the wbcci uses the word airstream in the club name and on letterhead, tee shirts, flags, napkins....and so on...

and if done, just the way they have always done this.....it's ok.

since they've never printed wb condoms, or required officers to get a wb tatoo on their shinny sides......
they can't start doing that now with the word airstream in the club.....

(note members can still get tatoos of anything they want, anywhere)......

the 'name use agreement' looks pretty benign........

so where does your 'con 2' noted above come from?....
has someone written up some pros/cons and distributed them?
based on who's view of pro/con?
based on who's reading of the agreement document?

i don't see anything in this agreement that.....

"enable Thor to have the possibility of undesired influence or control over our Club"

this sounds like the product of someone trying to influence votes.....

clearly some don't like the name offering....
and others do......
and still others are open to change, just not aoai.....
and still others want no change, no way, no how......

it is often suggested that the company (t/t, a/s) has some secret motive and a desire to grab this club, control it and run it down fast........

why would they want to hurt the club? where is the proof, what is the proof?

i have not seen one example of thor/airstream doing anything negative regarding the wbcci.........ever.......have you?

can anyone give us any examples of the company hurting the club....ever?

the truth is the club hurts the club, when viewed by folks who want the club to be different than it is...

solving the conundrum of changing the club to benefit more folks who currently are not in the club or aren't active in the club or might join if......well that is a hugh challenge.

every thing i've seen over 25+ years of airsteam ownership, starting at the tender age of 25.....
suggests the company has always helped the club,
stayed out of the way unless asked and
ultimately lent a hand....when financial problems have hit the wbcci.

i generally like a little anarchy or activist movement....

but there isn't any big corporate evil in this story to attack.....
unless you consider the name change committe as somehow sinister....

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-18-2006, 11:06 PM   #18
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What do you suppose would happen if the name change happened and then - down the road... Thor sells Airstream - or there is a hostile take over or ....

The Aistream brand expands to include white box trailers or some other kind of trailer that tube owners just don't like?
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Old 03-18-2006, 11:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janet
What do you suppose would happen if .....The Aistream brand expands to include white box trailers or some other kind of trailer that tube owners just don't like?
hi janet.....

ya mean like 'white loaf trailers' or mohos, or rivetless tubes?....the wbcci has already demonstrated the narrowminded ness to exclude airtream products......and only have years, decline in membership, grasping for help and some friendly suggestions from dealers, corp and so on.........

were class b, argosy, round mohos, flat mohos and so on allowed to join.....

and now hopefully base camps and base camp 5th wheels...

did letting these inferior and impure rvs into the club hurt? hardly i think....

if a/s decides to slap an a/s label or something made by some other thor company......
it would be fine with me if those owners joined......
but since the brands under thor don't share much of anything, and compete financially against each other......
it' is unlikely airstream would want a moho with just the label.....
where would they go for warranty, repairs and such....

thor brands don't operate in anyway like gm brands....there is no comparison, by any business measure or financial or construction issue...

as for what my happen with new owners for a/s.......who knows?....
airstream has changed hands several times over the years.....
at what ownership stage was the wbcci hurt my any new owner?

really the club isn't that big an issue for the company imo....
except from a 'good will' perspective.

and it has always seemed to me that the company has supported the club....
mt whatever way the club has asked for support...

now i agree completely with those that say the clubs infrastructure/organization and legislative style is problematic.....it does operate a lot like the usa...it is a representative democracy...not a pure one and votes are like the electorial college....

and there is corruption, egos and old farts in charge.....

got anything better?

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-18-2006, 11:18 PM   #20
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I think the difference is that right now the wbcci doesn't have to answer to thor (or anyone) at all, and in the future they are putting themselves in a position where they will. Why would they do that, and spend a lot of money doing it, when what they've got now works fine without any hoops to jump through? How could it be better to hand over more control to an outside entity. Airstream reps have said in the past that the wbcci means nothing to them, they're not the demographic they're going for, they don't promote AS in the way they want to be promoted (which I found pretty offensive as a devoted vintage owner), does that sound like someone you want to be running to for approval of new ideas? I don't think so.
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Old 03-18-2006, 11:49 PM   #21
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hi stef......

sure the club has to answer.......it has to answer to declining membership, declining dealer support, leading to less revenue to operate, and climbing operating costs....

they cannot even get local units to agree to a small dues increase to pay for needed things as it is.....

the only issue they (the wbcci) seem to be risking, to me, is having the club name.....
tied to the prosperity of airstream......
and the agreement says they can get out in 3 months?.......if they choose to?

so i suppose if the airstream brand goes under.......
a club named airstream might be hurt.......or would it......?

ever heard of the studebaker owners club or the edsel owners club or the vixen owners club or ........any of hundreds of clubs named for defunct brands.......

there is an issue (besides how badly the wbcci seems to operate).....
and it is an issue that hasn't been mentioned relating to the the name change......but i think may be at the core for some......of the angry folks...

and that issue is the how does the company interface with owners of vintage airstreams.....

when the company's primary business is selling new airstreams......
how best do they relate to vintage owners.......
some of whom think they should get free service, or big discounts, or automatic upgrades....and so on......

and i am not referring to anyone here.......but plenty of owners think airstream should fix or solve issues regardless of the warranty or trailer age.....

for any ongoing brand.......relating to owners of older models....of anything....is usually a 'no win' proposition........

in reality.... the safest, cheapest, easiest involvement the company could have with the club........would be NONE.......

a few days ago.....i posted the 1992 combined issue wbcci/caraVanner....

and in it was noted that airstream had agreed to underwrite (PAY) the publishing costs for the wbcci......

back in 1992....the bb was being paid for by thor/airstream?....did anyone read that?

how long did that go on?

does anyone know how much cash a/s has directed toward the wbcci over the years.....

so the notion that the club is somehow independent now...is really limited by club revenue...

i agree with you regarding the statement tim champ made about how the company relates to the club...and vintage owners......
but it was spoken by someone who got that one point right, without the wisdom to understand longterm relationships, company good will and how those issues all work together......knowing only the one fact (and saying out loud) just revealed his lack of wisdom....

no i wouldn't want tim approving wbcci club ideas......
but first the club has gotta have some ideas.....right?

and when did we last hear from tim here?.......someone wiser than he... has a muzzle....

cheers
2air'

and please keep in mind.....i'm not pro club or pro company....
and i do like us thinking aloud about this issue.....i know it is important......

gosh this thread is civil...
so far.....
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Old 03-19-2006, 05:47 AM   #22
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To All of you who have responded to my thread I truely thank you. I agree and you all have helped me a great deal to understand the process. I think I always understood the issue and that has been for the years I have been in the club (6yrs.) I have been an observer and felt we were far removed from the fun of travel and adventure and caught up with receptions, clothing, and other things.

You input has been of trememdous help and I have learned a great deal from your comments. Thank you all so much. We as a group have power and this forum has made this possible. In the past this kind of things would have just slide by. Thank goodness for the oportunity to communitcate.

Robin
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Old 03-19-2006, 06:01 AM   #23
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2air,

Thanks, for the reply, the letter I received is was from WBCCI in Jackson Center and the "Con: 2 " I mentioned is a direct quote from that letter which is now posted on our website. Up until this point like you I hadn't seen anything "evil" in the contract either but as you pointed out it had a negative tone so I just thought I missed something, OR did not have enough background in trademark agreements to be sure so I used to forum for feedback. I am very pleased to have so many people respond. It is exactly what I wanted. A debate, an examination of facts, etc. Many heads are better than one.

I really appreciate your imput. You know as a leader you really do need to listen to all sides of a story I just didn't feel I was understanding it. I do think the name change is a waste of money we have been using the name WBCCI the Airstream RV Association as long as I can remember so why pay for it now? AND when I first heard all about this at Int.l 2004 it was in relationship to declining members and I stand firm in my analysis of the survey and information directly within my unit. It's the way we act as a club, exclusive, receptions, dinners, clothing, that's turning the young off. Look around the young generation are biking, hiking and more physical that's why sneakers cost over $100.00 when we use to by keds for 89 cents. I'm not interested in traveling 3600miles to sit in a meeting to decide how we should fly flags. LOL
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Old 03-19-2006, 06:44 AM   #24
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rgesch -- Thanks to YOU for bringing this information to us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
and when did we last hear from tim here?.......someone wiser than he... has a muzzle....
2air -- I just picked up a 2006 Airstream sales brochure and found this blurb about WBCCI inside next to a picture of older trailers with the red numbers on them: "The Wally Byam Caravan Club International has been an embodiment and promoter of the Airstream lifestyle, its members living dreams of freedom and adventure all around the world." A bit of a change from what Tim Champ once spouted. Indeed, someone found the muzzle!

But notice that even the company understands WBCCI's purpose is to promote the "Airstream lifestyle" (my emphasis), not the product. The 75th Anniversary brochure has a nice piece on the company's history and Wally's legend; it doesn't look like they have any problem with explaining who Wally Byam is to Airstreaming and why he's an Airstream icon. So why should the WBCCI membership have a problem with that? WBCCI is the club of Airstreaming people and the Airstreaming lifestyle, founded by Wally Byam; Thor makes Airstreams, first introduced to the world by Wally Byam, for Airstreaming people. Separate organizations, separate purposes, separate names, joined forever by history. It's not that hard.
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Old 03-19-2006, 06:46 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgesch
I'm not interested in traveling 3600miles to sit in a meeting to decide how we should fly flags. LOL
Can't get any clearer than that! Well put, rgesch!

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Old 03-19-2006, 08:16 AM   #26
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HEAR, HEAR !!!!

Just can't say it better than that! I'm ready to come out fighting for NO NAME CHANGE!!!!!

I't the people IN the Airstreams that's important and making the club work for them!!!!!!

Thanks So Very Much for all the reply's EVERYONES opionion is important regardless where you stand on the issue.

Robn
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougjamie
rgesch -- Thanks to YOU for bringing this information to us.



2air -- I just picked up a 2006 Airstream sales brochure and found this blurb about WBCCI inside next to a picture of older trailers with the red numbers on them: "The Wally Byam Caravan Club International has been an embodiment and promoter of the Airstream lifestyle, its members living dreams of freedom and adventure all around the world." A bit of a change from what Tim Champ once spouted. Indeed, someone found the muzzle!

But notice that even the company understands WBCCI's purpose is to promote the "Airstream lifestyle" (my emphasis), not the product. The 75th Anniversary brochure has a nice piece on the company's history and Wally's legend; it doesn't look like they have any problem with explaining who Wally Byam is to Airstreaming and why he's an Airstream icon. So why should the WBCCI membership have a problem with that? WBCCI is the club of Airstreaming people and the Airstreaming lifestyle, founded by Wally Byam; Thor makes Airstreams, first introduced to the world by Wally Byam, for Airstreaming people. Separate organizations, separate purposes, separate names, joined forever by history. It's not that hard.
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Old 03-19-2006, 09:52 AM   #27
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Thumbs up 2air is really Mr Spock!!

2air, you continue to amaze me. I used to read your posts for the humor and now I read them for the WISDOM??

You have put forth a really rational and logical explanation of the issue.

Are you really in reality Mr. Spock?? Quite Logical!!

Is the Enterprise docked just outside of Earth Orbit??

I too see no threat in changing the name. I also don't think it is worth all the rhetoric that is being exchanged. I once was put into a 2 week seminar to learn (synergy). That means that when we all work together as one, the output is more than the expected output of the sum of all working independantly. In other words, by working together we could accomplish a lot more. I also learned that some folks like to debate for the sake of it.

I think this issue is not worth all the rhetoric that we have expended. We have bigger issues we need to solve.

1. How to enlarge the club.
2. Streamlining the Administration of the club.
3. How to change the club to more readily meet the needs and desires of younger members.

I could go on. I would rather see more discussions by these same very intelligent and articulate folks on other more pertinent subjects. I'll bet we could do a lot to keep the club vigorous and growing.
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Old 03-19-2006, 09:55 AM   #28
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Given the conversations of a national forum type rally, and the possibility of it happening, let alone the successful local forum type rally gatherings, it may make the whole WBCCI thing moot.
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