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Old 12-29-2009, 08:49 AM   #15
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Ok, I'm gonna step into this quagmire to point out that Dale has posted an opinion and as usual, there are many other opinions that get floated and that's healthy.

What's interesting to me is that Roger bought up some mis-info, it was cleared up, and then folks start to find other things to nit pick about. Sheesh, if I were in a position in leadership, I'd be scratching my head wondering what exactly would it take to make folks happy. The complaint has been that WBCCI has had very little web presence and that they should be taking more note to do electronic things. They start to do that, and then the complaint quickly changes or comes to it's not enough, it's not with my idea for a hosting company, it's too open (when folks say WBCCI is too closed).....

From what I understand, the BB has not had many money loosing issues, so in essence when one brings up loss of revenue, the BB has for the most part, in it's current form (like it or not) has not been a deficit drag...**for the most part**, so to bring how much money WBCCI looses into the fold is not really relevant since it's typically not a money looser with from what I understand, the lion's share being paid for by advertisers.

Leo talks about hearing nothing but crickets, but frankly, like the Airstream Town Hall Thread, one can hardly blame folks for getting sick and tired of the constant lambasting from many on this forum and others. There is a line between opinion and constant berating and chastising. It's gotten to the point of offensive and I'm not just talking about the WBCCI threads either. When was the last time anyone here has seen Airstream officially on AF since the marketing thread? We basically ran them off and then we wonder why we hear crickets?

What ever happened civility, constructive feedback, etc. Why exactly is it that most everything on-line become this call to arms (and not just on AF, many forms suffer the same thing)? Mind you I have been just as guilty of this in the past....so I am not trying to be the pot calling the kettle black, just pointing out a sad reality.
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Old 12-29-2009, 09:17 AM   #16
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Eric,

You really should become a member of WBCCI. You are becoming one of it's greatest allies and ardent supporters and that is just what WBCCI needs right now! I don't know why you sit on the fence in this area and not join - I think you would be an excellent contributing member to the club. What are you waiting for?

For the Blue Beret - and comments about it - sure not everybody is going to say something you like to hear and we know that some people want to only hear positive comments. There is a place for that type of conversation but it isn't here. For what I wrote earlier on this I wonder why it is that these topics have been presented before and little to no action is taken. How many years has it taken to get it online in the first place and at that it was done initially in a way that did not respect members privacy, was it not? That was corrected quickly...

As an example to improvements, I already know that with some simple typography and layout changes, the BB could be reduced in size while still retaining the same information. Reduced size means lower production costs. And with even simple changes in the type of paper used to print it on it can feel more appealing. A more appealing product will perhaps entice more to be interested in the club. It goes on and on.

Lets take a member who is involved in publication work for travel and tourism, who has created and assisted in the production of a magazine and who has contributed to the production of collateral which is printed off by the hundreds of thousands - why would a members thoughts not be valid on a project like the Blue Beret and ways that that publication could be improved to better sell the club as well as inform its members? Why is everyone who points out that there are better ways of doing things are THEY labeled as whiners or whatever.

You likely do not get the Blue Beret in printed form being as you aren't yet a member, but if you did, pwerhaps you would understand that small changes like these can result in big returns!

BTW - the production of the BB is the only thing that is self funded - postage is covered by your membership dues, its in the inside cover. Could that be 100% self funded?????
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Old 12-29-2009, 09:30 AM   #17
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Even if the BB is currently revenue neutral, or even slightly profitable. placing it online and eliminating printing and mailing costs would appear to increase the positive cash flow. Something desperately needed right now.
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Old 12-29-2009, 09:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
SNIP: What ever happened civility, constructive feedback, etc. Why exactly is it that most everything on-line become this call to arms (and not just on AF, many forms suffer the same thing)? Mind you I have been just as guilty of this in the past....so I am not trying to be the pot calling the kettle black, just pointing out a sad reality.

Interesting little read if folks get a moment....

Familiarity Breeds Contempt – For Civility « The Collapse of Civility
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:11 AM   #19
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I, for one, would opt to receive my Blue Beret electronically. All I would ask for is a notification email that it is now available on-line. I would also like to see the roster on-line. That could be another big printing and postage savings.

I think that it is time for the Club to reduce travel reimbursements, and hire a real IT person to bring the Club into the 21st Century.

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Old 12-29-2009, 10:35 AM   #20
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I like my hard copy; I can touch it and take it with me.
I do keep the BB's.

On-line is great for those members on the road for weeks at a time.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:35 AM   #21
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I only wish I knew who I could email at WBCCI-national to purvey my suggestions rather than blankly posting them here only for people not able to do anything about it except to read them. However, after responding recently to a BB column, I didn't even receive so much as a "thanks for sharing" reply let alone a constructive reply to my suggestions. So you'll pardon my cynicism for emailing anyone at WBCCI about my ideas.

So here goes...like even our federal gov't, the implementation practices toward change on the part of the WBCCI suck. There's a way to get people to recognize that the online edition of the WBCCI is there. The Good Sam RV club did this last July with "Highways" which is their monthly publication. For about 3 months, they heavily wrote and advertised that the July issue would be online only and anyone wanting a paper copy needed to notify in advance of such. As it turned out, it went quite well and there was quite a positive response. Such measures are required to make everyone aware that the digital edition of the BB is there. Eventually one could then allow people to opt-out of receiving a mailed copy, perhaps via a question on the annual WBCCI renewal form.

What the WBCCI is doing now with the dual editions of the BB is equivalent to how the US gov't handled (and is still handling) the issue of dollar coins. The US Mint still issues paper dollars as well as dollar coins. The paper dollar would have to stop being produced before the dollar coin would catch on. But for some reason the US gov't likes to keep dumping money down the drain printing new copies of dollar bills instead of coins which last decades if not centuries instead of the (I think) 1-5 years that a paper dollar lasts.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:40 AM   #22
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Tepid but I hope civil.

I must chime in here, hopefully in the spirit of constructive criticism. When I got my first Blue Beret, I nearly went nuts trying to figure out just which region Virginia and D.C. fit into. The MAP in the publication is pretty badly drawn, especially bad for the smaller eastern states. There is nothing specifically for the new members, where to, how to, welcome to... other than the list of new members and the longer list of "in memorium".

The pictures and parties were right out of the 1950's - Did that once, grew up as an outcast in that very closed society, and don't enjoy paying for the privilege of sitting with people who still live in the 50's - who have forgotten nothing - and learned nothing.

The newsletter is just pretty blah. Didn't make me all excited to run out and go to the international. Subsequent experience and changing over to the WDCU did help, but the WDCU newsletter IS on my "must read" list, and the Blue Beret gets about 5 to 10 minutes from receipt to the shredder.

It is nice to see they've put it online, ...but still, yawn.


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Old 12-29-2009, 11:13 AM   #23
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The paper dollar would have to stop being produced before the dollar coin would catch on.
Exactly. The Canadian gov't stopped printing dollar bills and substituted dollar and two dollar coins years ago. I'm sure a lot of people didn't like it for habits are hard to change.

I was in a nonprofit organization which published a newspaper regularly and when the organization was losing money, I suggested that it be sent electronically to save money. There was an immediate chorus of "no!": We don't have all their e-mail addresses, we've always done it that way, it doesn't cost that much, blah, blah, blah. Money got so tight that a few issues were sent electronically, but then a little more money came in and a couple more were printed and mailed, since then no electronic edition, no print either. The electronic edition was simply a pdf of the print edition, but what looks good on paper does not look good on a computer—it has to be reformatted. Try reading some newspapers online—some of their web pages are attractive, but others are awful (Wash. Post seems to be a good example of awful). No members of that nonprofit have much of any contact with the organization because of resistance to change and the downward spiral has caught up with them. No contact eventually means no renewals.

It looks like the BB is now offered both ways, but to effect this change to as many people as possible, the effort has to be promoted aggressively. For ex., when membership renewals come in, there should be a line requesting e-mail addresses and when hdqrs receives those addresses, immediately switch those people over to the electronic edition. Is the online BB reformatted?

As for civility, it would be nice, but the lack of it is a natural reflection of the problem. The amount of frustration and anger with the WBCCI shows up here constantly. That is a good measure of the difficulty in effecting change. When people are heavily invested in the success of an organization that appears to them to be failing, they get mad and they have to express it somewhere. This Forum is their only outlet for that frustration. They feel betrayed and they're going to let people know it. What happens here under those circumstances is in no way strange. It has happened countless times before—whenever an institution does not respond to a significant number of its members, they either try to change it, try and give up, or just leave.

While it is interesting to watch this process, the outcomes are fairly predictable. Some members will leave and disappear (has been happening for years), some will form new organizations (already happening) and some will stay and like the way it is. The remaining WBCCI will be smaller and may die off in time, or it may be reformed to some degree, but the decades long decline will be very, very difficult to reverse. By now the actions of its leadership have damaged its reputation. Maybe some day a smaller WBCCI will merge with some new group in an effort to survive. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will remind me of this post and that only fools predict the future.

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Old 12-29-2009, 01:48 PM   #24
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I was fortunate enough to be given some copies of The Caravanner. Now that was a beautiful publication. I often pull them from the the mylar sleeve and look at them like a little child studying the toy catalog. They are like prized possessions to me.
I recieve the Blue Beret until 1.1.10 when my membership lapses. In my brief time in the Club I retained one issue of the Blue Beret. I held on to it because my daughter was on the cover at the Madison International. I literally read the newsletter in three minutes. I read the President tell me how dandy the next International is going to be. How much fun I am going to have and how I should register now. I look at the full page skymed ads and pray my kids have abandoned me in the woods before I contemplate that ad. I read some funny old time ginggles that probably were fairly clever one word at a time whizzing down the highway but really seem dated now. They are usually followed by some advice that I didn't need. I then glance at the advertisements for the caravans. They all look so fun until I see the cost and think about the amount of time I would be earning zero income. Then there are the classifieds. I see the overpriced trailers I have no interest in. I glance at the back cover for some inspiring rally photos. Sometimes I smile at a few, most times I am glad I never lunchoned. And the recycling bin opens, and away it goes.
I was getting the Vintage Advantage. I read them four or five times and then save them on the book shelf. Fine magazine, very fine.
I get Airstream Life. I read it four or five times and then save it on my book shelf. I often pull an old issue out and read it again. Fine magazine, very fine.

If anyone has any copies of The Caravanner laying around they do not want, I promise I will treasure them.
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:19 PM   #25
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I only wish I knew who I could email at WBCCI-national to purvey my suggestions rather than blankly posting them here only for people not able to do anything about it except to read them.
Atobols, you can get contact info here:

http://www.wbcci.org/index.cfm?pageSRC=Contact_Us

Ganglin...hit it right on the spot...good one.

And now, Tim. I am not advocating anything but to keep it civil, and putting truth up. There is a lot of half truths, partial truths and downright nasty going around and I'm not going to get into a whole flame war about it here Tim, but you know what I'm talking about. WBCCI has a clear and present perception problem. Of that there is little question. Look at Roger's post and Roger is not the only one either, but I'll use him as an example. Some have said WBCCI hasn't promoted the changes or features, and that is absolutely correct they haven't. If they did perhaps there would be fewer posts like Roger's (and it's not a dig on Roger, he and I are buds).

I'm not saying that things can't be better, I'm not saying that there are not problems, what I am saying is that there are far better ways to go about it than what I've been seeing. Could I be wrong? Sure. Perhaps folks have tried to do things in the only manner in which they feel is appropriate. In terms of the Blue Beret, is it perfect? Could it be better? Sure there too, but complaining about it on a 3rd party forum isn't going to carry a lot of weight. I know some feel it does, but I can tell you it doesn't, in fact the Airstream example of earlier is a gleaming example of how badly it does not work and only further puts us all down the fox hole, but to each their own. I'd be interested in seeing exactly what folks here have done to make the BB better or more efficient. My guess is that outside of the complaints, very little, but I'm happy to be proven wrong by example.

As for making BB exclusive to members, go for it. You are totally right and perhaps that may come sooner than later, but in the meantime, know that not everyone wants it electronically....but perhaps a system could be put into place that folks select how they want it delivered...but mind you, without volunteers to help do it, there would be costs involved which from what I understand folks are trying to minimize.

Some folks suggest that there be an interactive website. Those also cost $$ to create. There is a lot of talent out here, perhaps someone with the skill set would volunteer or float working proposal?! I can tell you if folks are upset about BB costs, imagine what they'd say if they saw a $35k (or more) line item in the budget for a salary for a web position.

I dunno folks, I don't have all the answers and perhaps this post is an effort in futility and if you feel this is a waste of your time, I'll apologize here in advance. Recent things in life have really made me reflect on the important things in life. As has been said, it's a club and a voluntary club at that. Membership like here on AF is completely optional.

A lot of folks make this an us against them type thing, but the funny thing is, at the end of the day, I have this Airstream, there are many like it but this one is mine and I am happy to camp with any of you simply because we share a common interest...to me, anything beyond that is simply gravy.
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:19 PM   #26
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serveD a purpose.

these threads are beginning to repeat and recycle....

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...for-44954.html

we all know this stuff, the original purpose and value of this news print thing has been posted 100s of times.

so yes, the bb (or whatever name was used) once SERVED a purpose.

it was like a train/bus schedule for a/s travelers (and unfortunately still is, just that)

i recall reading copies 30 years ago, just when my streaming began.

it was interesting to look at the caravans or big gatherings and dream.

which is of course what the company has ALWAYS sold.

dreams.

as everyone breathing knows, there are better, clearer and LESS expensive ways to achieve those original goals now.

while the things and WAYS that most a/s travelers dream have changed, evolved or expanded like the universe.

while ads may pay for this bird cage liner, even ad revenue is DOWN significantly.

and the caravanner really wasn't much better, but thankfully it was put to rest.

could there be print media of some sort that IS of value, sure.

but most of the club PAID staff time and efforts NOW should be spent of helping folks realize their dreams in new ways.

btw there was ONE ISSUE that combined these 2 relics of club/company media and it's here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f492...ews-21341.html

take a trip back in time, read the prez letters, ads, rally info and so on....

the irony is that the '92 stuff is STILL relevant and not a lot different than the 70s stuff.

the club has been dead or frozen for a LONG LONG TIME and 4 some, that freeze makes for a perfect dream.

there is no reason to be 4 or against this old crap.

it's like visiting a wax museum and arguing that the 'early elvis' statue is better or worse than the 'fat elvis' statue.

when neither matters, neither sings and NO ONE is listening, in the post rhinestone velvetLESS daze...

cheers
2air'
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:41 PM   #27
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....the club has been dead or frozen for a LONG LONG TIME and 4 some, that freeze makes for a perfect dream...

cheers
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And maybe being frozen in the past is a way to ignore the fact that they're getting old....
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Old 12-29-2009, 03:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Sure there too, but complaining about it on a 3rd party forum isn't going to carry a lot of weight.
Actually, to discuss it on AirForums (the 3rd party site) IS the best place to discuss it for a couple of reasons. First, there are likely more WBCCI members discussing these issues here than at any other forums. Also, I believe that there is enough evidence out there that the discussion would not occur as freely on other forums as they do here. And I understand that there may be some disappointment that the issue cannot be moderated over here as it can be elsewhere. Still, the communication is free and open – you cannot take only the good leaving the bad behind or only the bad with the good. It is like taking the smell away from a rose because you don’t like the scent. No message is 100% perfectly good and no message is 100% perfectly bad. There is a ratio in every message of good and bad and the reader can determine the applicability of that message to their own situation. The message and messenger should not be invalidated just because you do not like one or the other, should it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
WBCCI has a clear and present perception problem.
Yes it does – and so many professional people in the club have voiced what should be considered expert opinions on what it would take to improve the situation – the Blue Beret is one example. However, it seems by practice that these suggestions are slow to be acted on if at all. And I do not think it is the venue that is the problem but rather that the machine has become so big that it cannot act in a precipitous manner. It is like a supertanker trying to make a tight right turn – how many miles does it take to turn a super tanker?

As for electronic newsletter delivery, this has been requested for years and I can say from experience that it can be totally managed – in fact, all of WBCCI’s web infrastructure could be managed such that members could renew online, and even select what unit they want to be with. And it can be done at a cost savings to WBCCI. Access to newsletters, online directories forums, whatever – they can all be managed and integrated into one package.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
Some folks suggest that there be an interactive website. Those also cost $$ to create.
No they do not – not if the organization is willing to utilize the talents of the membership base to perform these functions. Look what you have in this club – lawyers, doctors, webmasters, professional designers, PR professionals, and so much more. But I have never seen the call to round up these folks and get them going on using their talents to better the club. It the call went out, it must have been a whisper rather than a shout. Right now, the club needs a shout, wouldn’t you agree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
There is a lot of talent out here, perhaps someone with the skill set would volunteer or float working proposal?!
.
Perhaps someone will… But should it be a “someone, or a group of someones?
I thought it was going to happen last year when I was involved in all of the web stuff. By all indications, that was the goal as it was explained to me and it could have been done – the whole thing in one sweep. At this point, it will be interesting to see if WBCCI can get together the volunteers to manage that asset because, quite frankly, it is really needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
I can tell you if folks are upset about BB costs, imagine what they'd say if they saw a $35k (or more) line item in the budget for a salary for a web position.
I think it is safe to say that this should not ever happen, because if it does, the WBCCI has once again not utilized the talents of the membership base to support itself.

As for electronic newsletter delivery, this has been requested for years and I can say from experience that it can be totally managed – in fact, all of WBCCI’s web infrastructure could be managed such that members could renew online, and even select what unit they want to be with. And it can be done at a cost savings to WBCCI utilizing the talents of only the members. Access to newsletters, online directories forums, whatever – they can all be managed and integrated into one package. Will that happen? I don’t know. I do not believe that it will happen quickly enough to really help the club turn around. Some of the advice I have heard offered to WBCCI IBT & leadership in the area of web infrastructure as presented in the archived meetings on WBCCI.org is so blatantly wrong that I do not see how an informed decision could be made.

In the area of the Blue Beret, are there discussions going on to see if that process can be improved for the benefit of the club members and the public who has not yet joined the club? I don’t think so, I have not heard of any because if they did – I know of at least 2 people who would be interested in volunteering to help out. People with very professional experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
As has been said, it's a club and a voluntary club at that. Membership like here on AF is completely optional.
True – it is just a club. But it is one that is experiencing some tough times and one in which many individuals are trying to make a difference and even a few are thinking with their professional caps on.

I think the club needs to renew or start anew a call for volunteers and a sincere effort should be made to allow those people to truly make a difference. It will likely be uncomfortable to a lot of leaders who have sunk into the rut of established ways of operating. But in the end, it could really mean the survival of the club.
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