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06-19-2009, 04:39 AM
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#1
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Rivet Master
1977 27' Overlander
1954 25' Cruiser
1990 34.5' Airstream 345
VC Highlands
, Nevada
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,151
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New WBCCI forums - miss the mark?
In the latest of things that WBCCI probably should NOT do to help itself, the newly created forums, which will be presented at the International Rally in Madison, is going to be hosted on a site that is not owned or operated by the WBCCI. In fact – it will be on a site belonging to a commercial vendor that has zero responsibility or ties to WBCCI. Well, he is a member of WBCCI – at least that much.
Looking at these new forums, located at forum.vintage-airstream.com, it is apparent that a lot or work has gone into upgrading things. But it also appears that not much thought was given to the multitude of issues that can and inevitably will arise from NOT hosting those forums on a site that is owned, managed and controlled by the WBCCI. You can’t see the forums just yet, but you can see a preview at WBCCI Forums.
Consider things like Identity, backup issues, loss of data or the forums itself. What if the vendor goes out of business? What if???? I think these questions were not thought of. But if they were, they were discarded as unimportant. Charlie Burke, who is heading up the new forums project states that this all occurred with the Executive Committee’s acceptance. But I do not think they knew the whole story.
Having been one who for a short time at least, was on the committee to institute these new forums I have nothing but disappointment for the direction that these forums have taken with respect to the hosting and taking the cheapest route possible. Hosting them as a sub domain on a commercial vendor’s site offers nothing towards the identity of WBCCI. It is just a sub domain… It further lowers the WBCCI’s standing in the RV community.
I still believe that there is time to correct this situation. I think that given the choice, the WBCCI could alter course before it’s too late and get a domain name and server space and put a forums where they should be – under the direct and complete control of the WBCCI.
And for that I am willing to try right here and now to help them – I am offering FREE of endorsements, sponsor links, fees dues or recompense OF ANY KIND to host the new forums under a site that is owned by WBCCI. And if it can’t be on WBCCI.org, no problem – I have purchased the domain name WBCCIforums.Org and I will GIVE that to the WBCCI free of charge, endorsements, sponsor links, fees dues or recompense OF ANY KIND so that the new forums can be hosted on a site that is owned and controlled by WBCCI. This offer is such that if WBCCI wanted, they could also transfer WBCCI.Org to the same server space and start maintaining that for, freeing them from OTS and saving the club $3000 per year. These items I am giving to WBCCI if they will take it. FREE! The domain name is all set up and the server space is sitting and waiting. Check it out for yourself…. http://wbcciforums.org.
I am just a WBCCI member who is concerned that the WBCCI leadership should really consider the implications of hosting such a valuable asset off site and out from it’s direct control when it doesn’t have to. These new forums SHOULD be under the WBCCI umbrella, not parked away on some sub domain on a site not in any way related to the organization.
I believe wbcci.org is the best place to host the forums, but if it can't be done - WBCCIforums.Org is a far better choice than a name which is misleading at best, will confuse many members (hey, is this a vintage site I am going to?) and eventually will have to be moved to WBCCI’s site sooner or later. Why take a chance at losing all of that data? Let’s make the right move NOW. Either park those forums at WBCCI.org or move them to a web site that the WBCCI can own right now for zero cost.
Let’s fix this now! Want more information; see the full story at SaveWally.org.
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06-19-2009, 08:18 AM
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#3
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Miss Rivette
1965 17' Caravel
Hell
, Michigan
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,644
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Tim, this is so sad that this club is making such bad choices!
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06-19-2009, 08:49 AM
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#4
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4 Rivet Member
1975 31' Sovereign
Houston
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 494
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Well I am not a member of the WBCCI so I almost never comment on anything related to it. I do occasionally ask a question or two however.
I will say that good contractors most often avoid building things they hope will last on sands, (shifting or otherwise).
Also I have wondered what ever became of Charlie Burke. Nice to see him mentioned. Apparently he never found much use for this Air Forum which I think he did join years back. Seems he used to be a service mgr. at some AS-RV house in Montana or Idaho. Hope he is well.
Now my questions;
First there was the VAC (the vintage sub-groups "forum" or bulletin board) and then there was the VAL (vintage airstream list) which came about when the WBCCI found the VAC to be too much trouble (is that right?).
What has happened to the VAL?
Seems a guy in Texas named Tom Patterson kept it all organized. What became of him and that endeavor?
Oddly if I recall correctly Patterson did not own an Airstream but a Silver Streak or SOAB (some other aluminum body).
Is the new WBCCI forum a Vintage (sub) Club forum or the Main Club's Forum?
__________________
__________________________
____ d'drummer ____
...aahh..rumm..pu..tum..tummm...
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06-19-2009, 09:07 AM
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#5
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Administrator
1961 16' Bambi
Dallas
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,025
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I don't understand the WBCCI's needs to have their own forum, I feel this will just divide the Airstream community even more. We host this public WBCCI forum here and have 9 private forums where members of individual chapters can talk in private. AIR does forums well, we have a proven track record and I think we are THE place to meet online. The WBCCI should stay focused on doing rallies well, being THE club of Airstream owners. Maybe I am defensive because this forums has years of hard work into it but how would the WBCCI feel if AIR announced it was going to formalize and become a club to compete with WBCCI. I have offered to help them over the years but never heard back, I gave up. I think they should stick to being a club, to helping Airstreamers caravan around the world (dropped the ball with Cape Town), to focus on modernizing their events so they appeal to a broader demographic, etc. It seems like all this forum stuff is just an excuse to try and fix something that's not broken. If member numbers are slipping look at the chapters that are growing and find out why. It's not becuase those chapters have a forum, it's because those chapters have fun.
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06-19-2009, 09:53 AM
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#6
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Rivet Master
1979 23' Safari
1954 29' Liner
Orange
, California
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Distantdrummer
Well I am not a member of the WBCCI so I almost never comment on anything related to it. I do occasionally ask a question or two however.
I will say that good contractors most often avoid building things they hope will last on sands, (shifting or otherwise).
Also I have wondered what ever became of Charlie Burke. Nice to see him mentioned. Apparently he never found much use for this Air Forum which I think he did join years back. Seems he used to be a service mgr. at some AS-RV house in Montana or Idaho. Hope he is well.
Now my questions;
First there was the VAC (the vintage sub-groups "forum" or bulletin board) and then there was the VAL (vintage airstream list) which came about when the WBCCI found the VAC to be too much trouble (is that right?).
What has happened to the VAL?
Seems a guy in Texas named Tom Patterson kept it all organized. What became of him and that endeavor?
Oddly if I recall correctly Patterson did not own an Airstream but a Silver Streak or SOAB (some other aluminum body).
Is the new WBCCI forum a Vintage (sub) Club forum or the Main Club's Forum?
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dd,
The Vintage Airstream List is still alive, the activity varies from day to day. Tom Patterson does have a Silver Streak and is kind enough to host the email list on his site. I find it very useful for vintage airstream advise. In addition, Hunter Hampton has an Airstream group on Yahoo, I find of value also.
Bill
__________________
Bill Kerfoot, WBCCI/VAC/CAC/El Camino Real Unit #5223
Just my personal opinion
1973 Dodge W200 PowerWagon, 1977 Lincoln Continental, 2014 Dodge Durango
1979 23' Safari, and 1954 29' Double Door Liner Orange, CA
https://billbethsblog.blogspot.com/
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06-20-2009, 06:48 AM
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#7
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Rivet Master
1995 30' Excella
Bowie
, Maryland
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,345
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Generally, I prefer forums that aren't run by the organization they are about, such as this site.
Why? Because I've heard of waaaay too many cases where the organization in question doesn't like some topic and can have it deleted. This happens all the time in software and hardware forums, for example. It's much better to have a third party running the forum - yes, the organization can still apply pressure ("we'll no longer let our employees post useful information here!"), but it's much harder, and the forum owner at least has a choice to resist the pressure.
Also, let's face it: the leadership of WBCCI are probably not experts on running forums. In that situation, it makes more sense to contract it out. There are too many security concerns, spammer concerns, and the like to encourage someone that doesn't know what they're doing to run a forum. (And, yes, I run my own forum and have had to deal with those concerns.)
__________________
1995 Airstream Classic 30' Excella 1000
2014 Ram 2500 Crew Cab with Cummins 6.7L Diesel
Sold but not forgotten: 1991 Airstream B190
Sold: 2006 F-250 6.0L Powerstroke Supercab
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06-20-2009, 07:23 AM
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#8
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Miss Rivette
1965 17' Caravel
Hell
, Michigan
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,644
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But its the fact that Tim offered to give the WBCCI a FREE url, and offered to help in anyway he could. Now the forums are in the hands of a vendor. Watch this.... try going to Airstream < Airstream Campers | Vintage-Airstream.com this is the region 3 website....or I should say...was.
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06-20-2009, 07:35 AM
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#9
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4 Rivet Member
1975 23' Safari
1978 31' Excella 500
Franklin
, Indiana
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 481
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Tim-
Thanks for bringing up an interesting point for discussion. I was unaware of this development and will sit back and enjoy the ensuing exchange of opinion!
__________________
Dallas Peak, MD 'That 70's Guy!'
VAC Past President
WBCCI #8481
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06-20-2009, 07:51 AM
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#10
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Rivet Master
1977 27' Overlander
1954 25' Cruiser
1990 34.5' Airstream 345
VC Highlands
, Nevada
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,151
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Thanks Dallas - I am just looking out for what I believe is in the best interest of the WBCCI. I am concerned that this is a bad move and I am saying so.
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06-20-2009, 08:17 AM
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#11
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Rivet Master
Airstream - Other
2016 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Bosque Farms
, New Mexico
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,017
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I'm not trying to be the goofball here, but I just don't see the problem with hosting forums (or website or whatever) with a commercial hosting site. A couple of notes here:
1. Hosting a forum (or whatever) with a commercial server does not suggest that the commercial outfit is in any sense running the forum. Most commercial outfits just rent you the space on the server, and you do whatever you want: In the case of a forum, you can use your own administrators/moderators, use volunteers, whatever tickles your fancy.
2. What you get from a decent commercial outfit is a commitment to keeping the server up to date (recent programming languages, for example), to doing regular backups in case of failure, to offering good and informative support to customers, and to keeping prices/offerings under control in a competitive environment.
3. If the WBCCI were to try to go it alone by having its own server, I'd be the first to howl with protest about wasting members' money. Servers aren't cheap, nor is hiring somebody to look after them.
Again, most sites (forums, websites, blogs, whatever) are on rented server space someplace. The current main WBCCI site is no exception.
Lynn
__________________
ACI Big Red Number 21043
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06-20-2009, 08:20 AM
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#12
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Just an old timer...
2004 22' Interstate
Tipton
, Iowa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,759
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I probably shouldn't even comment as we were members for seven years, but dropped out six or seven years ago... but I really see this as once again the club doing too little too late.
Rather than being leaders in club communications, they're once again stragglers. Some ten years after it should have been in place, and both members and prospective members expected a web communications presence, they're finally introducing one. But there are very few folks are looking any longer.
And as far as WBCCI seeing Air rallies as competition... that's just another example of short-sightedness on their part. Having attended both over the years, the only thing that they have in common is that the folks who show up have Airstreams. There's room for all kinds of rallies out there, and they're not in competition. Today's world is so busy that in order for anyone to succeed at anything, inclusiveness is the word to adhere to. Exclusiveness, on the other had, is the harbinger of doom for an organization. Exclusiveness has largely lost its appeal in polite society, but the WBCCI clings to exclusivity to it's very core.
The future for the WBCCI (if it has a future) is in cooperative relationships that foster interests from a much wider audience, and unfortunately the history of the club leadership has a proven lengthy track record of not being very good at forming those, even with it's own membership.
It will be interesting to watch as this develops.
Roger
__________________
havin' to fix my broken Airstreams since 1987...
AIR 2053 Current: 2004 Airstream Interstate "B-Van" T1N DODGE Sprinter
Former Airstreams: 1953 Flying Cloud, 1957 Overlander, 1961 Bambi, 1970 Safari Special, 1978 Argosy Minuet, 1985 325 Moho, 1994 Limited 34' Two-door, 1994 B190 "B-Van"
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06-20-2009, 09:02 AM
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#13
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Rivet Master
Airstream - Other
2016 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Bosque Farms
, New Mexico
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,017
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I guess I'm just totally confused. In your initial message, you wrote about hosting ("the newly created forums ...is going to be hosted on a site that is not owned or operated by the WBCCI"). Now you're talking about domains (URLs) and not hosting?
Lynn
__________________
ACI Big Red Number 21043
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06-20-2009, 09:20 AM
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#14
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Site Team
1964 26' Overlander
1964 19' Globetrotter
OlyPen
, Washington
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,926
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Chiming in with my .02. It is baffling to me that the WBCCI would do this. Having a commercial entity with a stake in Airstreams and their owners wallets overseeing WBCCI's not for profit, corporate forums seems like a huge conflict of interest. Managing a forum isn't rocket science but there are regular issues that crop up. Handling conflicts between those with commercial interests and forum members is a chronic issue. Surely a better solution can be found.
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06-20-2009, 09:34 AM
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#15
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Just an old timer...
2004 22' Interstate
Tipton
, Iowa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT
As for exclusiveness -- that's what clubs are -- exclusive. You have to meet the ownership requirements, and in order to take advantage of the 130 Unit's organizing and facilitating efforts you need to be a member. 6600 members is nothing to sneeze at, neither is more than 500 rallies a year. Membership has its privileges, and I for one, am very happy to be a member.
More than 125 Airstreams at the Region 4 Rally (West Virginia), and 100 Airstreams at Region 2 in Niagara Falls, on the very same weekend speaks to the strength of the WBCCI. Not too shabby for both events to be held on the very same weekend within five hundred miles of each other.
Roger is painfully aware (it shows) of the current leadership (or lack thereof) challenges within the club. Unfortunately that frustration and mis-direction all exists at the top. How long can it possibly go on for? How long indeed!
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Just a couple of thoughts here to clarify... and then I'll be on my way...
When I joined WBCCI it had more than 10,000 members... in 1998. There are more Airstreams on the road today than ever before in the history of the company... yet WBCCI membership has fallen 40% in ten years.
There are a few individual units that are doing very well with membership, but it's not because of the national leadership; it's the unit leadership that's working.
And last, remember that this is a club that has has had leadership that fought to exclude Airstream owners for years, starting with the painted Argosy trailers back in the early '70s. Every new owner of a different 'class' of Airstream has had to do battle with the club leadership to belong. That's the kind of exclusivity I'm talking about; an institutional exclusivity that ends up killing an organization. If it was really about caravanning in Airstream products, then they all should have been welcomed with open arms.
In fact, with the historical perspective of nearly thirty years now, it was about silver trailer snobbery... and that, with it's attendant hurt feelings, (among other things) has caused the precipitous drop in membership. Look at the recent motorhome squabbles as an example. Who cares, really? If it's an Airstream product, and the owner pays the dues and contributes, does it really matter whether it's silver aluminum? They're a contributing member!
I'm not complaining, mind you; I'm just sharing my observations. I enjoyed being a member; I just realized several years ago that being a member carried no privileges I was interested in exercizing.
And, since I'm not a member, I really don't have a dog in this fight so I'll leave you back to your regularly scheduled thread.
Roger
__________________
havin' to fix my broken Airstreams since 1987...
AIR 2053 Current: 2004 Airstream Interstate "B-Van" T1N DODGE Sprinter
Former Airstreams: 1953 Flying Cloud, 1957 Overlander, 1961 Bambi, 1970 Safari Special, 1978 Argosy Minuet, 1985 325 Moho, 1994 Limited 34' Two-door, 1994 B190 "B-Van"
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06-20-2009, 10:46 AM
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#16
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Restorations done right
Commercial Member
1962 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Vintage Kin Owner
Currently Looking...
Baltimore
, Maryland
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,545
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I bet Pee Wee has some sage insight on this situation. Sure hope he chimes in soon. It was his Mother that was our first president.
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06-20-2009, 11:06 AM
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#17
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Just an old timer...
2004 22' Interstate
Tipton
, Iowa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,759
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Guys, I'm sorry... I don't mean to hijack the thread... it's about where hosting services should appropriately reside; not another "what's wrong with the club thread"...
So, I appologize for taking this astray, and let's return to Buttercup's original issue.
Roger
__________________
havin' to fix my broken Airstreams since 1987...
AIR 2053 Current: 2004 Airstream Interstate "B-Van" T1N DODGE Sprinter
Former Airstreams: 1953 Flying Cloud, 1957 Overlander, 1961 Bambi, 1970 Safari Special, 1978 Argosy Minuet, 1985 325 Moho, 1994 Limited 34' Two-door, 1994 B190 "B-Van"
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06-20-2009, 12:35 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
1977 27' Overlander
1954 25' Cruiser
1990 34.5' Airstream 345
VC Highlands
, Nevada
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eubank
I guess I'm just totally confused. In your initial message, you wrote about hosting ("the newly created forums ...is going to be hosted on a site that is not owned or operated by the WBCCI"). Now you're talking about domains (URLs) and not hosting?
Lynn
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Lynn, the hosting part - where the files that we look at on the web, is actually not expensive at all, Places like GoDaddy for example, can cost about $225 per year and the domain name (wbcci.org or wbcciforums.org in my case) cost $35 per or less if you buy it for muntiple years. So for maybe $250.00 per year - and utilizing volunteer efforts of web savvy members, the WBCCI gets a web site that it can be proud of. Wbcci saves $3000 per year.
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06-20-2009, 01:58 PM
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#19
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Rivet Master
1995 30' Excella
Bowie
, Maryland
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttercup
Lynn, the hosting part - where the files that we look at on the web, is actually not expensive at all, Places like GoDaddy for example, can cost about $225 per year and the domain name (wbcci.org or wbcciforums.org in my case) cost $35 per or less if you buy it for muntiple years. So for maybe $250.00 per year - and utilizing volunteer efforts of web savvy members, the WBCCI gets a web site that it can be proud of. Wbcci saves $3000 per year.
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$225/year for what amount of traffic? I run three relatively small websites within my one account, and that's something like $180/year. But a website like WBCCI is very likely to draw a lot more visitors than my sites do, and thus will cost more.
I'm not a huge fan of having members volunteer to run websites. They tend to be hit or miss - if the volunteer is motivated and has the time and skills, it's great; but, inevitably, the volunteer has a personal issue or something and gets distracted, and the site falls into disrepair, emails go unanswered, etc., all of which reflects poorly on the club when a potential new member swings by.
I see this all the time with roller skating rink websites - the owner gets all enthusiastic about websites, creates one, posts it online... then forgets about it. Pretty soon, half the links are dead, and that page with the schedule that he never got around to making is STILL returning a 404 (not found) error 3 years later... then they forget to renew the domain name, and a porn site shows up seconds later.
I'd rather pay someone to maintain the thing.
__________________
1995 Airstream Classic 30' Excella 1000
2014 Ram 2500 Crew Cab with Cummins 6.7L Diesel
Sold but not forgotten: 1991 Airstream B190
Sold: 2006 F-250 6.0L Powerstroke Supercab
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06-20-2009, 03:21 PM
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#20
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Rivet Master
Airstream - Other
2016 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Bosque Farms
, New Mexico
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttercup
Lynn, the hosting part - where the files that we look at on the web, is actually not expensive at all, Places like GoDaddy for example, can cost about $225 per year and the domain name (wbcci.org or wbcciforums.org in my case) cost $35 per or less if you buy it for muntiple years. So for maybe $250.00 per year - and utilizing volunteer efforts of web savvy members, the WBCCI gets a web site that it can be proud of. Wbcci saves $3000 per year.
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Sooooo ... where's the beef on hosting? I guess I'm just dense, but I just don't see the issue.
Lynn
__________________
ACI Big Red Number 21043
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