New WBCCI forums - miss the mark?

[eubank]

BTW, I would be careful with low-cost places like GoDaddy. For example, I use a fairly robust script for webforms, and the script requires at least PHP 5.1, which was released in 2005. A low-cost GoDaddy account includes PHP, but it's a much older version.

Lynn

[Buttercup]

Well, sites with thousands of visitors like Airforums have dedicated servers and I am betting Andy does that. It is the most expensive but the best.
Vintage-Airstream.com is in fact hosted on GoDaddy, I am guessing whatever is the cheapest shared or Virtual Dedicated Server.

I use Hostgator and a business reseller account because, quite frankly, we actually do websites for paying clients and donate to several non-profit entities like the Death Valley Natural History Assn. This allows me to give each of my clients their own space, control panel, email,etc. They get to manage it or if they want, or if needed I can do it. So, this arangement gives each of my clients their own space separate from everything else. The Death Valley site has hundreds of visitors a day. and is up 99.9+. SaveWally is all there, etc... Overall, that system works nice. I pay more than a VDS/Shared account buy way less than a dedicated server.

One thing about volonteerism and successful sites - having one person does lead to fatigue. But a site like AirForums, where there are a dozen or more volunteers, the fatague factor goes way down and the site thrives. With the WBCCI, I believe that if the web savvy members volonteered and maintained little sections here and there, it could be a success. It just needs to be properly overseen by a steering committee.

This is so doable for the club, and wild give a bunch of members a sense of purpose. It is a win-win for all.

The BEEF on hosting, Lynn, is that the WBCCI is subletting the new forums to a commercial vendor who currently is not a member of WBCCI (but was at one time) and doing that in exchange for cooperative links and I am guessing, eventual ad revenue sharing or something along those lines - who knows, as far as anyboky knows, there is nothing in place should the Vintage-Airstream.com/WBCCI partnership sour or fail. It directs a dedicated Airstream audience towards his site where they might just discover he has a trailer for sale. It departs from being an intimate part of the WBCCI.org or WBCCI.net family of sites, where it could/should have been hosted anyway. It leads people to not be 100% sure of where they are and takes away from the WBCCI identity. Heck, WBCCI could have had a real savings if they went with a Yahoo groups forum, or even a Ning site. It is a step down for WBCCI, not a step up.

[Andy R]

I think the important issue is for anyone starting a forum is that they keep control of the data so they can move it if they need to. I think AIR Forums has probably been on 5-6 servers over the years. If it's hosted on a free account from a member, a commercial vendor (who is also a member) or their own hosting account, owning/having control of the data and being able to move it (as needed) is critical.

The issue with hosting with someone else is that you could potentially loose control of the data if they fail to pay the bill. What would happen if the person died and the bills were no longer paid. It's best to make sure you always have access to your data just like you would with your paper files. Would you outsource the bookkeeping, records management (paperwork), etc? It's very possible to do so but most companies choose to keep ownership of their own books and files in house for security reasons. The same goes for your digital assets.

[Buttercup]

Thanks Andy - I really hope Charlie see's your post. While my gift to WBCCI may not be as good as hosting directly on WBCCI.org - it is better than hosting on a 3rd party's web site as is the case right now.

WBCCI needs to wrestle WBCCI.org and the contents from OTS and get it on their own. But they feel that they can't so they have kind of land locked themselves into the situation they are in now. Your sagetious advice should be headed at the highest levels in WBCCI.

[Andy R]

Well it seems the new WBCCI forum was announced today. It looks like the site is now on subdomain (forum.wbcci.org) but it's still on the commercial vendor's server. That means all the data being posted is probably under full control of the commercial party that was offering to host the site before:

IP of forum.wbcci.org: 97.107.134.8
IP of vintage-airstream.com: 97.107.137.167

I sure hope the WBCCI knows what they are doing, I'd hate to see them in a situation in the future where they can't get to their own data. As with most things in life it's easy to get along when there are no disruptive issues at hand but what could happen years down the road? If this 3rd party is unable to pay the hosting bills or the relationship sours, will the investment in shared knowledge be given back to the club? Hopefully they have a legal agreement to address this and it's a moot issue.

[Buttercup]

Actually, if you just browse to that IP address, you will get the Vintage-airstream.com blog. That and the rest of Greg's sites are being hosted out of linode.com hosting, not WBCCI servers.
The WBCCI membership has been deceived at a minimum. This is not much more than an alias - a redirect if you will. It is definitely not WBCCI's web site - their IP address is 64.9.209.28.
I also hope there is some sort of contractual agreement between Greg Gibson and WBCCI - I sure would not want to see what happened to Region 3 happen to the WBCCI!!!!!

[xrvr]

Received a message referring to new forums at forums.wbcci.org and when googled returns to old forum site with no way to go to new one. zz

[Nuvite-F]

Here's a link to the forum home page, for what it's worth. This worked a minute ago.

WBCCI Airstream Forum

Was sort of amused to see an ad for Good Sam Club on the WBCCI forum home page. Suppose they're trying to tell us something?

[Buttercup]

And ads for Best Buy & Visa and Angie's List. Etc... Is this want it takes for WBCCI to have it's own forums, even if it isn't really WBCCI's forums?
Question, Is WBCCI sharing in all that ad revenue?
Sad, sad, sad.

[dwightdi]

Our outside vendor, who is supplying the WBCCI forum for "free", sure looks like he is making a bunch of money off selling ad space on what is supposed to be a forum from a non-profit club. Since the outsiders do not know that the website is not owned by WBCCI, it looks to them like the club is making the money from the ads. I wonder if the government will also be fooled and start looking to collect taxes from the club for the money collected by selling the ad space. Little do they know Vintage trailer (which looks to be one of the principal advertisers) is actually the owner. The club has paid a high price (in their lose of image)i for the "free" site maintenance. I wonder if the IBT members got the full story of what would happen before they agreed to let Charlie move forward with this project. I wonder if Charlie even knew what this would become.

[Andy R]

One thing they did do right is select the proper software (same thing that runs our site). But as the old saying goes, "It's not the arrows, it's the Indian". Forum management is tough and some people might not realize how hard our team here at AIR works to keep the peace. We have invested thousands of hours of time learning how to moderate and refining our Community Rules. We will have to see how they do if their forum actually takes off. It's all hunky dory (and fun) when there is smooth sailing but when issues arise, that's when experience counts.

One thing I'd like to state is AIR Forums' desire to coexist with the WBCCI. We are probably the #1 source of new members for the WBCCI since we have 250,000 visitors a month. WBCCI needs AIR and we want to see WBCCI flourish.

The WBCCI should stay focused on doing rallies well, being THE club of Airstream owners. Maybe I am defensive because this forums has years of hard work into it but how would the WBCCI feel if AIR announced it was going to formalize and become a club to compete with WBCCI?

I have offered to help them over the years but never heard back, I gave up. I think they should stick to being a club, to helping Airstreamers caravan around the world (dropped the ball with Cape Town), to focus on modernizing their events so they appeal to a broader demographic, etc. It seems like all this forum stuff is just an excuse to try and fix something that's not broken. If member numbers are slipping look at the chapters that are growing and find out why. It's not becuase those chapters have a forum, it's because those chapters have fun.

I found this comment in their Community Guidelines to be a cheap shot at us here on AIR Forums:

...the fee-based system deters third parties, online criminals and scammers which are rampant on competitor ”free” listings.

Then the next paragraph goes on to state these things can't be avoided and disclaim them from liability?

Regardless of the website or organization’s best intentions, with a non-payment based system online criminals roam at will...without risk any of exposure or requirements for positive proof of identity.

Are these the official statements of the WBCCI? Is the WBCCI alluding to online criminals and scammers bring rampant here on AIR Forums? Gee, I wonder what other official statements the WBCCI will tell us through their forum?!?!

Please consider this my request for us to coexist in a respectful manner. Let's play nice and be fair. The last thing any of us want is to polarize the Airstream community. As Wally wished, let's have fun!

[eubank]

Originally Posted by Andy R

... I found this comment in their Community Guidelines to be a cheap shot at us here on AIR Forums:Then the next paragraph goes on to state these things can't be avoided and disclaim them from liability?Are these the official statements of the WBCCI? Is the WBCCI alluding to online criminals and scammers bring rampant here on AIR Forums? Gee, I wonder what other official statements the WBCCI will tell us through their forum?!?!

Please consider this my request for us to coexist in a respectful manner. Let's play nice and be fair. The last thing any of us want is to polarize the Airstream community. As Wally wished, let's have fun!

When discussions were going along, I gave them lots of input from my experience with (RV and non-RV related) forums from some time ago. Back then, the Number One Big Problem was eastern European spammers hawking pornography. The experience was awful, and I was doing my best to make sure that they wouldn't have the same ugly experience.

Lynn

[Mikethefixit]

IMHO I'm very glad WBCCI has their own site and forums,maybe they will take their dirty laundry and moaning an groaning about the WBCCI leadership and what they are doing or not doing too their own site. I personally am tired of hearing about who got kicked out or elected president when someone thought they shouldn't.
I am a supporting member of AiRForums and could care less about WBCCI(the orginazation).
When will they get it? That this is not a competition between WBCCI and AirForums as I read in one members comments. IT should be about Airstream owners getting together and having fun and sharing ideas and experiences. PERIOD

[Lily&Me]

Originally Posted by Mikethefixit

IMHO I'm very glad WBCCI has their own site and forums,maybe they will take their dirty laundry and moaning an groaning about the WBCCI leadership and what they are doing or not doing too their own site. I personally am tired of hearing about who got kicked out or elected president when someone thought they shouldn't.

Thank you for saying this, just couldn't bring myself to type these very words. Now I can second this opinion----it really is all very, very tiring. Yes, one could opt not to read this and the related threads, but it is just so enlightening! There is obviously a lot of anger and very hurt feelings amongst these differing opinions. Acknowledging that, it may be time for people to let it go and move on. There is still a lot of camping and fun to be had this summer.

[Mikethefixit]

Doug and Maggie
I have been quiet and bit my tongue as long as I can and I am back in my corner now till my tongues gets sore again from biting it. I thank our moderators here for letting me say my piece,they have a job that I would not want to do, I probably would have moderated me and deleted what I had to say but that's not the American way. We are supposed to have freedom of speech. I have been told before to choose my words with caution and hopefully I have not offended anyone.
I have some really great friends in that organization and they are not impressed with the UPPER ECHELON either.
So AIRSTREAM OWNERS UNITE. LETS GO AND CAMP AND HAVE FUN
Roger

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by Mikethefixit

Doug and Maggie
I thank our moderators here for letting me say my piece,they have a job that I would not want to do, I probably would have moderated me and deleted what I had to say but that's not the American way. We are supposed to have freedom of speech. I have been told before to choose my words with caution and hopefully I have not offended anyone.

Roger

<Moderator Hat ON>

Roger, I shouldn't say I speak for the entire moderation staff, and normally I wouldn't, but I'll go out on a limb on this one and say thanks for the kind thoughts from all of us.

Although the First Amendment really only applies to public political speech critical of government, I'll tell you that (despite claims to the contrary that you might hear) the Moderators here are very tolerant of our members' views, provided that they're well stated and don't violate our policies, and absolutely take no joy in deleting anyone's posts.

Your post is well within our polices.

Again, on behalf of the staff... thanks.

<Moderator Hat OFF>

Roger

[airedale]

Roger,
I hear what you are saying, and try to take it to heart. EVERY club has its issues, and you want to go and camping, so do most of the members in the WBCCI, we feel the same way. That is why we put up a fight, however with any club, you must have some rules or bylaws. I see that your not a member, and I have known this, but I hope you will join in on trying to save this club. Most people want to give up, but its a good club. Im sorry for the experience you may have had with your local unit, but you cant judge a book by its cover. All units are diffrent in their own ways. Support thoes who try to better the club, and make it about camping and having a good time! Some people dont want to be members of the club, and that is fine, but I ask, as a friend, dont put others club's down. Bring us up with ideas on how to make the club better. I go by a saying that has truly changed the way I view life. If Iam not trying to change the problem, then I have no right to complain about it. That has changed my position in the WBCCI and that is why I have become the 2nd Vice President of my local unit, to try and change the things I dont like.

[Nuvite-F]

I've been checking the new WBCCI forum occasionally but don't plan to register until the shooting dies down. (As in "grievances")

Does anybody know who "Cortez, the Super Administrator" is? I am sort of assuming it's Greg, since it's his forum.

[grtwhthuntr]

Ya know, as I stand at the edge of the crowd and read so much of this, I wonder how much political posturing is in the background that we (I) don't know about. I'm not really a club kinda guy per say but, I am really glad that I have found this forum, in particular due to its info and the personalities involved. As Airedale states, I can not complain about much as I'm not trying to fix a problem but this forum has helped pull me closer to becoming a member of our local chapter. If AIR did not exist, I don't believe I would even know there was a local chapter. Be that as it may, I would like to say that if everyone helps anther by 10% this world would be a better place. I feel that htis forum does that...Thank-you AIR
Good Luck

[airedale]

Well thank you for respecting what I wrote, and I do mean it. I hope you will try and go to your local unit and give it a try. As my mother always said, how will you know you wont like it unless you try it.