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Old 08-23-2009, 02:43 PM   #71
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The reason that this is such a bad idea is that the natural suspicion would be that the officers who approved this were involved in a quid pro quo deal. It doesn't mean that there was one, by any means; just that the opportunity is there.

As an auditor by profession, this kind of thing just makes my antennae vibrate.

The fact that our officers would surely not be involved in that kind of thing doesn't make it look any better.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I have to say that I am not a dues-paying member of WBCCI anymore. I don't believe any organization should be run in such a way that the group's assets are spent down for the benefit of its officers. Much could be done to reduce spending and live within a balanced budget. But it is not, so I will watch.

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Old 08-23-2009, 04:35 PM   #72
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I wonder how much personal info has been shared with this business?
All of it... since the guy with the key to the hen house door IS the commercial vendor.

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I wonder what exactly the Airstream Club is? Do they mean the WBCCI? I wonder why they call it the Airstream Club Forums, wouldn't the WBCCI Forums be a better name?
Right... a lot of misnomers and semi-accurate lingo being thrown around. Very fishy for being the "official" forum of the WBCCI.
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:33 PM   #73
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I have avoided this topic (cause I am sure people are just waiting to file another grievance against me on this topic) but this question begs to be answered correctly. First of all, I do not believe in any way, shape or form that the leadership of WBCCI is in any collusionary agreement with the management of the "new forums". On the contrary, they could not be in any partnership as far as I can see. Why?

Listening to the discussions on the topic from the meetings in Madison, the IBT suffers (as do many people who are not real "web savvy") from a lack of a clear understanding of what is required to run a web site, forums or the accompanying web infrastructure to support such things. That is not a slam, but a simple truth - many people know enough how to use the internet but not how to build the sites that make up the internet. It is not their fault that they do not understand these things and this is why the leadership defers this topic to a committee - to gather that knowledge for them. This is where the problem begins - it was basically a committee of one person who was given the authority to pursue the building of a forums rather than report the options available to the club. Afterall, that is the purpose of committee, to report back to the board.

These forums came about because it was not managed by a committee of several people who were web savvy. Rather, I believe, this situation exists because the project was entrusted to just one individual alone, rather than a committee of people. And I believe it is quite possible that this individual himself may not have had a complete enough knowledge of things like how to build forums, set up hosting and databases, etc to make the best decision. Because, had he that complete knowledge, the club likely would have opted to own and operate those forums itself by utilizing a group of responsible web savvy club members to build that for the club, rather than outsource it in a way that casts such doubt.

As the situation is today I do believe decisions were made which were not in the best interest of the club, but of which are detrimental to the club. And these decisions were not made with a complete understanding of what was needed to get the job done.

I also received one of those messages - but to an email address that I have never used at the old forums. In short, I believe that the address I received that message to could have been a mined address - where email addresses are collected from another source such as a web site for the purpose of sending email messages advertising one thing or another. I also noticed that the WBCCI's address was not in the message but rather the commercial vendor who is running the "new forums". And I for one continue to be disheartened that this is the case. I did "Opt Out" from future email messages from that site.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:03 PM   #74
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That's the problem with "appearances". In this case, the WBCCI traded something of value (the right to publish the club trademark and purport to be a service to its members) for much less than it would have cost had the club done it on its own.

So you have a private vendor benefitting from this at very little cost. This is why a person would wonder if there were some other reason - perhaps the vendor is a very close friend, so that is how he got the favor. In any event the appearance is improper.

I don't see how either party justifies the relationship as having been arms-length.
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Old 08-23-2009, 07:39 PM   #75
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Actually, th ecost to the club WOULD have been only a few hundred dollars per year if they would have done it themselves!
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:51 PM   #76
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They are still up to their shenanagens!

I've had a several day discussion with a few folks on the Rallies forum regarding the Gillette International and now Charlie Burke has moved the whole thing into oblivion saying the thread was started for publicity.

Right... only GOOD publicity I guess. Any frank discussion informing members planning to attend the Gillette International what to truly expect for their money has be cleansed from the "discussion"
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:23 PM   #77
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The saga continues!

Charlie Burke PM'd me (over there) claiming he revoked my access to the Member forums claiming I am not a current member.

I just got off the phone with Deb Mann at the WBCCI office who informed me that as long as a members dues are in by November 1st their membership continues uninterrupted.

What kind of BS tactics are they using over there to try to intimidate members that offer opinions that they don't like?

:Update: after calling him on it, Charlie has now determined that I actually am a member... how 'bout that?
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:43 PM   #78
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Steve I was reading that thread. All you said is what a lot of younger members have said that the entertainment and events do not appeal to the younger members and families in particular. You were polite and not negative.

It is a shocker that he tried to bar your access when there was not a thing out of line with what you said or how you presented it! It's probably good I never asked to join, I thought they might play at permissions in some cases but never did I dream they would single out posters on the basis of their respectful input.

And I am going to say it again. The online forum was a high priority matter mostly to the the web saavy members familiar with forum interchange that wanted opened lines of communication between top club leadership and club members but what they have instituted is totally ironic as a platform for better communication. Many want to talk and yet the forum's main priority is to censure and redirect rather than foster multifaceted dialog, regardless of how significant the subjects or how appropriately introduced or challenged they may be.

I appreciate your effort to share your observations and preferences with those on the new WBCCI forums. I wish the over zealous moderators weren't so quick to close down every conversation that does not actually credit and ingratiate the current club and its method of operation.

There is nothing moderate about that moderation. It's a hired gun laying down their special brand of justice.
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Old 09-16-2009, 05:03 PM   #79
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Steve - I too was following that conversation and watched in amazement as the thread disappeared into the aether.
It is quite obvious that those forums are savagely over-moderated. I'll tell you what - I will start the same thread name over on SaveWally and you can talk about it there to your hearts content.
They say that absolute power corrupts absolutely and I just can't help but feel that is the case over there based on all of the stories I have been hearing...
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Old 09-16-2009, 06:35 PM   #80
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All. I've sat on the sidelines plenty on this and I am only going to say this on the subject because given my relationship with the site, I may appear a bit biased, but let me assure you of this (and I am not speaking for the site, nor was I asked to be spokesperson):

There are always more than one side to every story and the fact is that unless you are a member, you cannot see the thread. Not ONE, read my type, not ONE word was deleted from Steve's post. The thread was simply moved. Want to read it, sign up and if you are a WBCCI member you'll be able to see it unedited and in its entirety.

As management here can attest, conversations about WBCCI are passionate conversations. As such management here knows full well that these conversations do get heated and many times off topic. I have a new found respect for what moderators here and elsewhere do as they know all too well about things like this.....

I mean really, c'mon folks, many of you have known me for over 7 years, I'm not one to drink from the Kool-Aid and I believe I've been a fairly straight shooter, as I am being with you now.

In the end, you'll believe whatever you'd like, I'm simply trying to point again that there are always two sides to every story.

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Old 09-16-2009, 06:50 PM   #81
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The thread was simply moved. Want to read it, sign up and if you are a WBCCI member you'll be able to see it unedited and in its entirety.
Right... moved to where someone who might be considering membership can not read it. Why did it need to be moved? Everything that I posted was about the topic of the original post. The post was a link to the agenda of the Gillette rally and I commented on my feelings regarding that agenda and backed up my assertions with my experiences at the Madison rally. It was moved to divert attention and to conceal it from non-members.

Also answer me why all of a sudden my member access was rescinded? Right as this thread was moved to the members only area. If the deadline for membership renewal is November 1st as Deb Mann at HQ told me then why would the forum be updating membership status before that time? What list could Charlie have referred to?

This has not been the first time I have been given the bums-rush on that forum... it seems to be the way they operate.

What a poor reflection on a club that is trying desperately to save itself.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:13 PM   #82
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Right... moved to where someone who might be considering membership can not read it. Why did it need to be moved? Everything that I posted was about the topic of the original post. The post was a link to the agenda of the Gillette rally and I commented on my feelings regarding that agenda and backed up my assertions with my experiences at the Madison rally. It was moved to divert attention and to conceal it from non-members.

Also answer me why all of a sudden my member access was rescinded? Right as this thread was moved to the members only area. If the deadline for membership renewal is November 1st as Deb Mann at HQ told me then why would the forum be updating membership status before that time? What list could Charlie have referred to?

This has not been the first time I have been given the bums-rush on that forum... it seems to be the way they operate.

What a poor reflection on a club that is trying desperately to save itself.
FWIW, I have not renewed my membership and do not intend to until I attend the next El Camino Real Unit rally next week. I still have access to the members only section. It is my understanding that the November 1 deadline is for the membership directory and all memberships are on a calendar year basis (ie, January to December).

Bill
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:16 PM   #83
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All. I've sat on the sidelines plenty on this and I am only going to say this on the subject because given my relationship with the site, I may appear a bit biased, but let me assure you of this (and I am not speaking for the site, nor was I asked to be spokesperson):
I have a question - what is the policy of a non-member of WBCCI being a moderator/administrator on WBCCI forums?
Were there discussions about the implications of having a non-member moderate?
I understand Cindy Reed - she is an employee and all.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:19 PM   #84
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There are always more than one side to every story and the fact is that unless you are a member, you cannot see the thread. Not ONE, read my type, not ONE word was deleted from Steve's post. The thread was simply moved. Want to read it, sign up and if you are a WBCCI member you'll be able to see it unedited and in its entirety.

As management here can attest, conversations about WBCCI are passionate conversations. As such management here knows full well that these conversations do get heated and many times off topic. I have a new found respect for what moderators here and elsewhere do as they know all too well about things like this.....

I mean really, c'mon folks, many of you have known me for over 7 years, I'm not one to drink from the Kool-Aid and I believe I've been a fairly straight shooter, as I am being with you now.

In the end, you'll believe whatever you'd like, I'm simply trying to point again that there are always two sides to every story.

I have two thoughts about your post Eric, the first is your mentioning that if we want to read the thread since it is moved just sign up. Both Steve and I were denied access to the forums so that's two big deals right there, right?

The other is to ask you to please tell me what the other side to the story is, (oh and there can be more than two sides. ) In everything that I was able to read no tempers were lost and it was as civil and well intentioned as any post could be. I couldn't feel any heat from where I sat and read.

Eric are you a moderator? You were always first to lead the charge in the direction opposite WBCCI. Don't tell me its better to rule in WBCCI than to serve in Air Forums! And just where does the reference to beliefs come into play in regard to the preceding posts?
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