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Old 09-25-2006, 08:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Over59
You sir are the one
oh my, getting testy are we?

I agree that racism is a strong word. But consider.

When a group is defined by some artificial attribute (like red jackets) and then are treated as a group (like in "I knew that those") without any consideration of individuality - isn't that exactly what racism is?

Because the word has such ugly connotations is why I think it important to make note of its presence. That is about the only way I know to get past them and on to more fruitful discussion that allows for individuals to not be branded by some artificial criterion.

If we want to make things better we have to work one on one - and start with ourselves.
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Old 09-25-2006, 08:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
oh my, getting testy are we?

I agree that racism is a strong word. But consider.

When a group is defined by some artificial attribute (like red jackets) and then are treated as a group (like in "I knew that those") without any consideration of individuality - isn't that exactly what racism is?

Because the word has such ugly connotations is why I think it important to make note of its presence. That is about the only way I know to get past them and on to more fruitful discussion that allows for individuals to not be branded by some artificial criterion.

If we want to make things better we have to work one on one - and start with ourselves.


Racism is a belief in the moral or biological superiority of one race or ethnic group over another or others.[1] The term racism is also sometimes used to refer to preference for one's own ethnic group (ethnocentrism)[2], fear of difference (xenophobia), views or preferences against interbreeding of the races (miscegenation)[3], and nationalism[4], regardless of any explicit belief in superiority or inferiority fact. Related concepts include prejudice, discrimination and racialism.
Racism has been used to justify discrimination | social discrimination, racial segregation and violence, including genocide.
The term racist, when used to describe someone who subscribes to racism, has been a pejorative term since at least the 1940s, and for this reason the identification of a group or person as racist is nearly always controversial.
The inaccurate characterization of my remarks I consider to be a hostile and personal attack. I will leave the members to decide who's posts fit the definition. I personally will no longer respond to your attempts to hijack threads by reframing the issues with your conceptual dishonesty.
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:26 PM   #17
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Typically I read and post on technical issues. I think I'll keep it that way after reading this and the Four Corners discussion thread. It is unfathomable to me that so many good people are going to such great lengths. My God, turn off the computer and go polish the trailer, or better yet, go camping alone to have some time to think about how to spend this short life more productively. All the best. Leave the rest.
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Old 09-26-2006, 01:07 PM   #18
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If your an Officer and Some of Your membership ARE LEAVING...

Quote:
Originally Posted by myboyburt
After being exposed to some Region 1 politics this past weekend at our business rally I was ready to "Take my ball and go home". Seems change is hard for some folks, they feel threatened by those of us who are active change agents and they are trying to stop our progress. I'm over it now AND will become even more involved in the WBCCI - beyond the Unit level at some point but for now I'll continue my work as Membership Chairperson for the New England Unit.

Warning, I'm stepping up on my soapbox now:

If you are an Officer in a WBCCI Unit and some of your membership is transferring to another unit in your local area you need to look at why they are leaving. I'll be willing to bet it's because the other unit is offering a better over all member experience for them. International/Region/Unit Officers must remember all WBCCI members are free agents - we can belong to any unit we want to! Fact is I belong to the New England Unit even those I don't fall within it's "assigned area" (should be in WMNHU)- get over it. The NEU is the Unit that welcomed my husband and I, included us in activities and generally just feels right for us. My whole family are now members of the NEU; Mom and Dad from AZ, Sister and husband from ME and Leon and I from NH. And I tell everyone, no matter what Unit they are in how much fun we have in the NEU. If they decide after comparing the experiences they have had with their Unit against the experiences they have had with the NEU that they want to leave their current Unit and join the NEU that is their right. as a member of the WBCCI.

Stepping off soapbox - folks are safe again.
HERE HERE GIRLFRIEND!!!

The problem is those whom are speaking have NOT done the research to know what their unit members want, they ASSUME they know. I have a number of e-mails from members of my former club who will make the switch to NEU because their unit members did not take the time, nor the inititive to get them out to a rally or get to know them. My husband and I drove out to see people in person, made phone calls, and kept in touch by e-mail. We have a relationship with the membership that is on-going and when we went to NEU they followed. This is a natural course of events. Why wouldn't they want to follow us we are their FRIENDS. We made AN EFFORT to know them.
NEU has done nothing wrong I wish some of the Region people WOULD read the forum they might learn something positive like I did. Instead they bash and blame others for their failing units. If they spent that time and energy on something positive like calling and visiting members they wouldn't be losing so many. I have read the Blue Beret and guess what? The concept is not a new one. Those people at the top do know this and have been encouraging us to call members recognizing that if we get them out to a rally they probably will come again. They ARE RIGHT!!!!!! I'll step down now.

NEW IN NEU AND PROUD OF IT!!!!!!!
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Old 09-26-2006, 08:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
oh my, getting testy are we?

I agree that racism is a strong word. But consider.

When a group is defined by some artificial attribute (like red jackets) and then are treated as a group (like in "I knew that those") without any consideration of individuality - isn't that exactly what racism is?

Because the word has such ugly connotations is why I think it important to make note of its presence. That is about the only way I know to get past them and on to more fruitful discussion that allows for individuals to not be branded by some artificial criterion.

If we want to make things better we have to work one on one - and start with ourselves.
Leipper, I don't think you were reading Over59's post in the way that it was intended, and maybe this thread belongs on a New England forum page, I'm not sure. But living so close to Boston, we have this thing for Boston and the Revolution. We live in a place of contradictions so we like throwing out words like "red coats" once in awhile. For example, Boston, heart of the Revolution....violence erupts over taxation, yet today Massachussetts is one of the most heavily taxed states in the Union. Get the picture?

Also I think you need to understand that the intent of this thread is for the New England unit to continue to strive for what will help them grow and stay alive. It is not intended to bash, it is intended to remind the club of how far they have come in the last 10 years.

As far as looking into oneself for change.....that is exactly what people like Over59, Myboyburt and others of the New England unit have done, and continue to do. They realized that they couldn't sit around and complain anymore about what they would like the unit to be. They realized that they had to help change the unit. Even the old guard likes the changes.

Sorry about the big speech, I just feel the need to moderate the discussion here because it seems that due to our lack of understanding of each other and our backgrounds, sometimes people make assumptions they shouldn't.

And if you ever get to a New England rally, you will realize "it's just camping" and one of our members did coin the phrase.

Kathleen
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Old 09-26-2006, 08:22 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberlanders
As far as looking into oneself for change.....that is exactly what people like Over59, Myboyburt and others of the New England unit have done, and continue to do. They realized that they couldn't sit around and complain anymore about what they would like the unit to be. They realized that they had to help change the unit. Even the old guard likes the changes.

And if you ever get to a New England rally, you will realize "it's just camping" and one of our members did coin the phrase.

Kathleen
Hi Kathleen,

You've hit the nail on the head - we in the NEU want to survive, really to grow so we are putting major effort into understanding what our members want out of our club. And you know what we've found out about attracting and maintaining members is not rocket science. It's all about accepting folks, old and young. Folks with kids and without, folks with pets (even the exotic ones as long as they don't try to eat you). Life is good in the New England Unit - our rallies and events are all about fun, fellowship and adventure. They really are!
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Old 09-26-2006, 10:20 PM   #21
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When I decided to take the big leap and join the WBCCI, I thought I would be a MAL because I really wasn't interested in club events, but soon realized I needed a home base and a sense of belonging. I shopped for a unit using the local websites. The pictures and activities posted made it a very easy decision to join the NEU - this was no mistake.
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Old 09-27-2006, 05:51 AM   #22
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We chose the New England unit for the fun and the people. What you read in the forums and what we experience when we are camping are probably two different animals that don't translate well here. Look at the pictures. We are a goofy bunch sometimes but there is true love and acceptance of everyone in our unit and we wouldn't want it any other way.
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Old 09-27-2006, 09:36 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberlanders
...But living so close to Boston, we have this thing for Boston and the Revolution. We live in a place of contradictions so we like throwing out words like "red coats" once in awhile.
funny you should mentione that. At the recent business meeting, our own Region 1 Prez (who is known to be "verbose" at times...), was doing his thing, giving his speach, and he himself used the "red coat" analogy, many times. It was hilarious. you had to be there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buberlanders
For example, Boston, heart of the Revolution....violence erupts over taxation, yet today Massachussetts is one of the most heavily taxed states in the Union.
its actually not as bad as all that. for some reason, we have that reputation, but in reality, we're very "middle of the road" on that front. I've seen listings of states, high to low, based on total tax burden, and we're actually floating around in the middle somewhere. There are many more tax-y places to live in the USA than good ol' MA.

But rember: its not about the taxes; its about who sets them, and how.

"Don't tread on ME!!!"

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Old 10-05-2006, 06:31 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
It seems an awful lot of people aren't thinking about the implications of putting the cart ahead of the horse.

They comdemn organization yet demand communications and structure and other facets of organization.

Building a structure and then going after goals is the process of extreme advocacy groups. That is not WBCCI.

The tradition with WBCCI is to go camping - together. And then to build organization as needed to support the effort.

And going camping is considered to be getting out and using the Airstream. It is not sitting in front of a computer display and keyboard and ranting on forums.

And then we have the racism (e.g. "red coats") and the defensiveness (e.g. "power tactics") and the bigotry and hubris (e.g. "cann't conceptualize").

Right now you have the "been there, done that" crowd versus the "I know better" crowd. The "I know better crowd" are making a lot of noise on these forums and it appears that it is hindering their listening. That is a tragedy because it is destructive but it is also an opportunity for those who want to learn.

From the talk, you'd think WBCCI was preventing people from going camping in their Airstreams if they don't do it with WBCCI. I think this is false and a contemptible allegation. I think WBCCI is getting set up as a straw man for other discontents.

If you want to go camping in your Airstream, go ahead. WBCCI isn't going to stop you. If you want to go camping with friends in your Airstream, go ahead. WBCCI isn't going to stop you. If you want to form another RV association, go ahead. WBCCI isn't going to stop you. WBCCI has 'been there, done that' and learned from the experience.

But I think you need to do a bit of introspection to consider whether your actions are to spite someone else (e.g. WBCCI) or to do something constructive like enjoying your RV with friends. Its only if your goals are clear and consonant with your feelings and values that you are going to be able to communicate them and gain colleagues to join you.
People with new ideas can only make a difference when people with old ideas in power allow them to. Possibly they are wrong and possibly you are wrong. We'll never know unless they are given a chance. Telling them to conform to your standards is not the answer. i.e My way or the highway.

Intrspection is a good idea if it means asking yourself am I wrong as opposed to why are they wrong.

P.S. your racism comment was offensive and instead of an excuse you should have offered an apology.
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:06 PM   #25
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Quote:
People with new ideas can only make a difference when people with old ideas in power allow them to. ... We'll never know unless they are given a chance.
People make a difference by how they act. They do not need permission. They can lead. Lead by example. Lead by persuasion. Lead by innovation.

The question for many of the folks participating in these threads is how to be effective in their personal leadership. Do they really know what they want? Are their actions in line with their goals? Do their actions reflect the values they espouse? Are they talking to the choir or making music to insprire the congregation? Do they bring people into the church or segregate the people inside from those outside?

Quote:
Telling them to conform to your standards is not the answer. i.e My way or the highway.
This is a two way street. It is the essence of tolerance, teamwork, and social cooperation. Much of what I see in these forums is people who wanted it their own way, and only their own way, and would not make any accomodation or consideration for any other way. Then they complain that it is the other folks saying 'my way or the highway.'

Quote:
Intrspection is a good idea if it means asking yourself am I wrong as opposed to why are they wrong.
Introspection is good for many things other than contemplating sins. It can be useful to help learn if what you are doing is getting you where you want to go, to learn if you really understand what you value, to understand how the path you take will get you to your goal, and what you might find along the way.

Quote:
your racism comment was offensive and instead of an excuse you should have offered an apology.
I am sorry you decided to take offense. To me, the more appropriate consideration is whether or not it was correct. I offered no excuse - that is a misperception you should correct if you want to understand me. My point is that it is ugly when we single out some group for derision or other negative. That is the essence of the meaning of the word. Any time you see someone creating a 'them' to pit against 'us' you should know that the emotions are going in the wrong direction. We must be aware of these kinds of things in what we say and be honest with each other in helping to move towards more productive dialog and better relationships.
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:15 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
People make a difference by how they act. They do not need permission. They can lead. Lead by example. Lead by persuasion. Lead by innovation.

The question for many of the folks participating in these threads is how to be effective in their personal leadership. Do they really know what they want? Are their actions in line with their goals? Do their actions reflect the values they espouse? Are they talking to the choir or making music to insprire the congregation? Do they bring people into the church or segregate the people inside from those outside?


This is a two way street. It is the essence of tolerance, teamwork, and social cooperation. Much of what I see in these forums is people who wanted it their own way, and only their own way, and would not make any accomodation or consideration for any other way. Then they complain that it is the other folks saying 'my way or the highway.'


Introspection is good for many things other than contemplating sins. It can be useful to help learn if what you are doing is getting you where you want to go, to learn if you really understand what you value, to understand how the path you take will get you to your goal, and what you might find along the way.


I am sorry you decided to take offense. To me, the more appropriate consideration is whether or not it was correct. I offered no excuse - that is a misperception you should correct if you want to understand me. My point is that it is ugly when we single out some group for derision or other negative. That is the essence of the meaning of the word. Any time you see someone creating a 'them' to pit against 'us' you should know that the emotions are going in the wrong direction. We must be aware of these kinds of things in what we say and be honest with each other in helping to move towards more productive dialog and better relationships.
My Friend, I suggest you use a dictionary so that the words you use correctly convey your meaning. I say this because you did not use that word correctly. Should I call someone a child molester for dramatic effect and then say they should interpret that to mean something else? Words have meaning and those meanings matter.

You and I do not see eye to eye on the Four corners topic and I doubt we will ever convince each other. So I trust we can agree to disagree.
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:10 AM   #27
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I say this because you did not use that word correctly. ...

You and I do not see eye to eye on the Four corners topic and I doubt we will ever convince each other. So I trust we can agree to disagree.
Since I have not stated my opion in regards the forming of Four Corners unit but rather only the process and behaviors being used to implement that formation, it seems it is rather premature to assert disagreement.

If the idea is to understand, then finding out why I use words the way they do (as I have tried to clarify), would be the goal. When the goal is to argue over dictionary definitions then it is getting into argument for the sake of argument and not for the sake of understanding.

It is often through disagreement that we learn. But that first requires that we strive to understand the topic and the nature of the disagreement and then respect others enough to allow them to mean what they intend rather than what we want them to mean. Disagreements should not be manufactured as they have been on the 4 corners issue or about the labels used in this thread IMHO.
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:15 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
...It is often through disagreement that we learn. But that first requires that we strive to understand the topic and the nature of the disagreement and then respect others enough to allow them to mean what they intend rather than what we want them to mean...
This is the best "sound bite" so far coming out of this thread and its "disagreements"!!!
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