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Old 03-09-2006, 08:51 AM   #29
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If work permits I am thinking about attending our first rally, where this vote will be taken. While personally I'm not hung up about the name itself, I am a process person and I do feel that the process to get us to this point was flawed.

Not on the fact that the majority of the voting populace didn't get a chance to make this decision, but that the decision and the direction that we gave International was changed. We voted on adding the name "Airstream". I think that's pretty plain and simple.

My thinking is to raise the issue at the local meeting that this proposal does not reflect what was presented to us and in case should be rejected because it does not follow the intent of the original resolution that our unit approved. This is really why I will vote against the name change. As far as I'm concerned you can call it XYZ. Let's just make sure that we follow the direction that the membership originally gave.

Jack
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Old 03-09-2006, 08:59 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcanavera
...I am a process person and I do feel that the process to get us to this point was flawed.

Not on the fact that the majority of the voting populace didn't get a chance to make this decision, but that the decision and the direction that we gave International was changed. We voted on adding the name "Airstream". I think that's pretty plain and simple.

My thinking is to raise the issue at the local meeting that this proposal does not reflect what was presented to us and in case should be rejected because it does not follow the intent of the original resolution that our unit approved. This is really why I will vote against the name change. As far as I'm concerned you can call it XYZ. Let's just make sure that we follow the direction that the membership originally gave.
Jack,

Could you elaborate on two of your comments so I can better understand:

1) What was presented to you by International
2) What you think the intent of the original resolution was and why

Thanks!
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Old 03-09-2006, 09:40 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Jarzabek
Boy there is a lot of infighting going on here.....
It seems like there is enough dissension to form a new group.....perhaps?
Sure members could always just take their ball and just go home. Or they could care, be active and get involved. I wouldn't characterize it as "fighting." Think of it as a committment. You can not walk out and you are in a burning house, since there are no exits, everyone must work together to get the flames put out. If the club merely showed those with opposing view points the door the club would be pretty flat. In my opinion, what may be distressing to others as upheaval is a mark of a healthy club flexing and expanding. Just a few growing pains.
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Old 03-09-2006, 09:50 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yukionna
Jack,

Could you elaborate on two of your comments so I can better understand:

1) What was presented to you by International
2) What you think the intent of the original resolution was and why

Thanks!
At a unit rally last April one of the business items that we voted on was a resolution to add Airstream to the name of the organization. It was noted that the Blue Beret surveys returned noted that the membership expressed interest in getting the name Airstream included. It was noted that it always seems to be an issue outside of the organization as to who WBCCI is, and it was even noted that the welcome sign that the campground erected for us on that rally said "Welcome Greater St. Louis Airstream Club" rather than WBCCI.

After some discussion it was felt that adding the name Airstream would be a benefit and the vote reflected that our unit would back this change. It was noted to us that there would be a committee formed to formulate a name. I truly believed that what we would see is an amalgamation of WBCCI with the Airstream name.

I think somewhere at last year's International, someone made the decision that the authorization to change the name meant that any name was possible. I don't know if anyone stood up at that point to remind the folks that the marching orders from the unit votes were to include the name Airstream into the organizations name. Maybe a fine hair to split, but I know for a fact that a lot of the folks at our meeting were under the impression that Airstream would be added to WBCCI name in some fashion.

Jack
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Old 03-09-2006, 11:01 AM   #33
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My guess is that if you are a member of a Unit, you have access to all of these things whether or not every member choses to read them or not, is the member's responsiblity. How can you call yourself a member of "something", if you don't take enough time to read the information that defines what you are a member of???

Shari
To me the answer is easy, I do it all the time. I've been a long-term and short-term member of many organizations, clubs, professional societies, etc. over the years without having ever read their bylaws, rules and defining documentation in detail. Their reputation, history, traditions, actions, activities, and relationships with members define them to me and I've never found the need to read up. That I've been a member of WBCCI for less than a year and an issue has come up where someone would suggest it's unthinkable to call yourself a member without having read and fully understood all the defining details, rules and regs makes me want to rethink membership. My purpose for joining was to get out with our Airstream trailer and enjoy it with my family and other like-minded people. I'm perfectly happy with the New England Unit and the friendly and professional way it's leaders run things, and hope that I can reciprocate by being involved and helping the unit grow and prosper. But maybe I'm just too irresponsible a member for the larger WBCCI.
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Old 03-09-2006, 11:26 AM   #34
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dougjamie, my point was not that you should memorize the constitution & bylaws, but that every member should at least know they exist and look to them for guidance when questions on how things are done come up.

I'm sure you are an asset to your unit, I'm just trying to encourage those with questions on how their unit is run, to look within.

Shari
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Old 03-09-2006, 12:22 PM   #35
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Doug & Jamie

Be cautious when someone tells you that you are the responsible one to gather and assimilate information or it's your fault. That is a manipulation by those who want you to feel bad and just go with the flow. The same as saying it's a "no brainer" which is to say "I have done the thinking for you, I am in the know and you should just trust me". Trust not this person.

In this name change we have seen the following:
Misdirection - the name change proposed doesn't match the motion.
Assumptions - the membership ASKED for the name change.
Self Delusion - the membership voted overwhelmingly for the name change.
Exclusion - not all members had material made available to them or were given the opportunity to even vote.

But we have also seen that information is poorly presented (if at all), The information presented is biased (there is no opposing viewpoint), and in the case of some of the individuals who are pushing this name change, self serving.

Don't feel guilty or pressured by any attempt by any member of these forums or of any representative of any group/unit who attempts to tell you that the information was right in front of you all along and you should be informed if you only took the time to read it. That is complete unadulterated BS. Some of us have been looking into this for months and only with the BB article have some of the pieces been released. Roy Bernd himself was reluctant to disclose information freely on the name change (like the market survey that really turned out to be just some acquaintances who are no longer in the business who said this was a good move).

The only information the IBT and Roy will put out is a PRO statement. Heck, even in our voting guides before elections we are given a pamphlet that gives an abbreviated "for and against" statement for every bond, etc... that you will be voting on. You will not see that with this name change.

So when someone tells you that you need to read this and that to be informed or it's your fault. You are not guilty - just misled.
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Old 03-09-2006, 03:49 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttercup
So when someone tells you that you need to read this and that to be informed or it's your fault. You are not guilty - just misled.
Buttercup,

I think YOU missed the point. This is the focus of their post. ------

"My purpose for joining was to get out with our Airstream trailer and enjoy it with my family and other like-minded people."

The name is not important, it's the people.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action
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Old 03-09-2006, 03:52 PM   #37
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Buttercup, as passionate as you and 65gt are about complaining, accusing people of serving their own interest, implying conspiracys, and protesting the name change, I still don't see what you want to do about it. You have no plan of action. You are just stirring up sentiment against the WBCCI in general.

You claim to care about the club, but you are not involved enough in your unit to even know what is going on. You encourage others that they don't need to familiarize themselves with how their unit or the national club works, that someone else in this all volunteer organization should be responsible for feeding information to them. This is what got you in this position in the first place.

There are people who have been involved in this name change from the beginning. I am not shocked that they do not feel compelled to freely fill you latecomers in on everything you missed once you woke up and noticed what was going on. Particularly with the attitude you present to them, which is that this is some conspiracy by Thor and Airstream (who you rudely refer to as A**stream because apparently you love their product so little you have decided they are the enemy and you dare not speak their name) and the self serving national board members. Gee, why wouldn't they want to deal with you?

But, ignoring the fact that you do not wish to acknowledge even the slightest bit of responsibility for your unawareness of the name change until it came up on the forums, what do you want to do about it? Because as far as I can tell your plan is to sow discontent until someone else gets involved to change the way things are done to your liking.

Your posts on this forum do nothing to effect changes in the WBCCI as a whole, since only a very small percentage of active members read the forum. So really you are expending a lot of effort to speak to only a small number of members, most of who are not any more involved than you are. The few who are involved in thier units, you dismiss as part of the problem instead of listening to what they're saying.

If you actually have a plan that involves you doing something other than posting long rants on the forum about how everything is broken, feel free to tell us about it. Otherwise you may continue to freely rant here on the forum, but I see no point in it.
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Old 03-09-2006, 04:27 PM   #38
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Stephanie,

It is pretty presumptious to state that we aren't involved in our unit enough to know what is going on! How would you know? Are you in my unit? I haven't seen you at any of the luncheons that we have been in. Haven't seen you at any of our rallies. You don't know us at all. My wife is interested in this enough that she was nominated for and was elected as a delegate for our unit. I myself am working with my unit to develop our dealership relationship and public outreach - all in the name of improving our membership in our unit and thus the WBCCI as a whole. We have only been members for a year but I would say (and I know others would agree) that my wife and I have been quite involved.

Thank you also for reporting that my contributions to this forum have no value - mostly because it is different from yours. As a moderator and contributer to these forums, you are a person of authority on this list. Too bad that you, in that capacity, take it upon yourself to assign value to peoples posts on this list. It does remind ne of the old guard attitude that we have seen so much of since we joined - "I have seniority and you don't" kind of thing. Do you know what I mean? No?

As for my awareness - when we joined the WBCCI, there was no information available to us on the name change because the BB was not reporting on the status, at all. We can't be informed if the information is not made available to us. WBCCI does not have an online version of the BB that we could peruse at our leisure. So where do we go to get the most controversial issue to start picking apart. it was these forums that we (and many others) first learned about the name change. so how can I possibly be responsible for my "unawareness" if there was no information??? I have been in the club for less than a year.

I do not dismiss anybody who is involved in their unit - I congratulate them because it is that ground level involvement in the unit that starts the improvement, not sitting on one's hands.

I am not here to create hate and discontent, but I do run into a lot of proponents of the name change who accuse me of that, like you are doing. And I will hazard a guess that based on the aggressiveness of your post, somewhat out of character for a moderator, that you are in some fashion involved in the name change... Maybe not.
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Old 03-09-2006, 04:38 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttercup
And I will hazard a guess that based on the aggressiveness of your post, somewhat out of character for a moderator, that you are in some fashion involved in the name change... Maybe not.
And as I said, you dismiss those who are involved as part of the problem, and so the conspiracy continues...

Like every member (and even though I am a Mod, I am still a member of this community), I have the right to evaluate the value of your posts to me and my opinion of their value to contributing to the solution to the problem. I politely stated that I don't see any value, or any plan for resolution.

So, what's your plan?
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Old 03-09-2006, 04:43 PM   #40
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ahh...moderators are members too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttercup
As a moderator and contributer to these forums, you are a person of authority on this list. Too bad that you, in that capacity, take it upon yourself to assign value to peoples posts on this list.
Since when can a moderator not freely voice an opinion? If Steph was acting as a "moderator" you would have been reprimanded privately and warned appropriately...just because we chose to volunteer our time "moderating" we do not give up our opinions or freedom to post them, just as you have done.

Shari
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Old 03-09-2006, 07:00 PM   #41
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And I'm posting as a member as well...

Frankly, I'm sick to death of this issue. I allowed my WBCCI membership to lapse last year after belonging for six or seven consecutive years. I've read all the hoopla about a name change... and it just doesn't make any difference one way or the other.

At the 2000 International, I met the sole surviving charter member of WBCCI and had a wonderful time chatting with him. It was during that conversation that I realized that the club was about CARAVANNING with Airstreams. It was not formed to be a "marque" club. It has never been about anything more than folks with Airstreams getting together and travelling together. Enjoying the sights while on the road with other Airstream owners. It was not, is not currently, and the plans have never been for it to be a "marque" club with Saturday afternoon get-togethers and bar-b-ques where the kids run around the park and play frisbee... although that is part of what has been done over the years. It's about travel. Caravanning in Airstreams.

All of the intra-clubs cater to the varied interests of CARAVANNERS. They were never intended to be do-all end-all organizations in and of themselves.

That conversation with the sole surviving charter member of WBCCI was also when I discovered that I wasn't a caravanner at this stage in my life. I just don't have the time, as many of us find ourselves right now. No organization can be all things to all people. To expect it to be so is going to disappoint someBODY. Once I figured out that I wasn't up for caravanning, and that the club was ABOUT caravanning, I had a much better understanding of why things are the way they are.

So... It matters little what the organization is called. What matters is what the membership sees as the future of the organization. For fifty years WBCCI has been organizing caravans. Perhaps if a little less time and precious energy were spent on frivolous concerns like the name, and more time and energy figuring out and then implementing what the new focus (if caravanning is no longer what the Wally Byam Caravan Club International does) should be...

In any event, it is not going to be resolved here. My opinion for all of you predisposed to beating your chests and screaming for all to hear is to tell take it to your club and fight your battles there if you feel it's that important. These Forums aren't the WBCCI.

Roger
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Old 03-09-2006, 07:13 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttercup
Thank you also for reporting that my contributions to this forum have no value - mostly because it is different from yours. As a moderator and contributer to these forums, you are a person of authority on this list. Too bad that you, in that capacity, take it upon yourself to assign value to peoples posts on this list. It does remind me of the old guard attitude that we have seen so much of since we joined - "I have seniority and you don't" kind of thing. Do you know what I mean? No?

It's not that your contributions do not count, it's that you and a couple of others have brought up your opinion repeatedly that it is now in the arena of a rant! Because the Airstream Forums is NOT the venue for making changes to the WBCCI.

And I think if you wanted to know, most of the mod/admin (volunteer staff) probably has the same opinion as yours. It's just we don't feel the need to have multiple threads that are many pages in length when the result will be the same as putting your finger in a glass of water and then pulling it out. Change can only happen at WBCCI. And the Airstream Forum is not affiliated with the WBCCI.

With regard to the old guard comment. You are making that stuff up in your head. And it's OK if you do. The only question I would ask is,
Does that work for you?
Is it getting you what you want?

If the answer is yes, I would suggest carry on.
If no, then I would suggest making a change.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

PS. Any attacks on the Mods/Admin/Owner does not work for us and we will make changes in that event.
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