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Old 03-27-2006, 07:16 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wkerfoot
Peter and Sharon,

If the By-laws were to eliminate weighted voting then there should be a maximum number of members per unit....
Bill
..but why?

If each unit has a single interest such as a single charter to the International body - they represent all the members within that Unit. Thus if their voting system is such that all members are able to cast their vote - then the votes would represent the full membership.

149 Units - would then have 149 votes - 98 votes being a 2/3 majority and 75 votes being a simple majority.

At the unit level regardless of the number of members individually - they speak as a collective - as long as they all have an opportunity to cast their vote.

On constitutional matters it requires 2/3 majority vote - which constitutes a YES or in favor vote or [NO or against vote]. It is this vote that is carried to the IBT Delegates meeting to be cast against all the other Units votes to determine the International vote in a compact version - rather than requiring over 8000 people to be present to vote at a single event.

I think we all want the same means to an end here. I did however forget about the issue of Members-at-Large not voting - I think it is unfair and that this member status should include full voting privilege.
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Old 03-27-2006, 07:30 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66Overlander
If I understand your wording, you are suggesting that each unit be required to vote 100% of their votes FOR or AGAINST, not split them IN RATIO to the way members voted within the unit.
Nope this is not it...

"winning a few key units"??? no I would say the simple majority or 2/3 majority of Units vote is the voice of the members.

For example our unit has approx 207 members - if we vote yes by 2/3 majority then our Delegate vote will be yes - not 136.66 yes and 70.38 No - as only approx. 70 will be in attendance.

IF all our members were able to cast their vote - maybe this would work - but to count members who have NOT cast their vote is well just a big FARCE. In a real world. But we are entering a Delegate meeting that is still in another world - thus the weighted votes will be included and the MAL's will not even thought many many units this go around will be making extra effort to educate their unit members in the decision before them.
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Old 03-27-2006, 08:25 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT6921
For example our unit has approx 207 members - if we vote yes by 2/3 majority then our Delegate vote will be yes - not 136.66 yes and 70.38 No - as only approx. 70 will be in attendance.

IF all our members were able to cast their vote - maybe this would work - but to count members who have NOT cast their vote is well just a big FARCE.
So if you hold your voting at a rally, and only 70 of your 207 members are able to attend to vote, and 2/3 of them (47) vote yes, and 1/3 (23) vote no, then 47 members are casting a yes vote for 207 members? 47 members are deciding for 70 members who voted, and 137 members who did not vote. That doesn't sound like democracy to me; it sounds dysfunctional.
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Old 03-27-2006, 09:11 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougjamie
So if you hold your voting at a rally, and only 70 of your 207 members are able to attend to vote, and 2/3 of them (47) vote yes, and 1/3 (23) vote no, then 47 members are casting a yes vote for 207 members? 47 members are deciding for 70 members who voted, and 137 members who did not vote. That doesn't sound like democracy to me; it sounds dysfunctional.

I did not say I agreed with this - but this is what the constitution is and approved by WBCCI. - As our Unit does not allow Proxy votes - for those who do not attend.

Now on the other side of the fence who are we to say what those other 137 votes should be i.e. 90 of them yes and and 47 no? As this is what the vote would be when the delegate casts his vote at a delegate meeting - with the weighted vote of 207 based on a required majority vote 137 to 70 - so explain the difference - there is NONE - IMHO.

And this unfair voting process will be this way until the Constitution is changed and new direction is provided to all Units - to allow all members to cast their vote.

I am hearing from you that we should by-pass the Unit on voting totally?

This would make room for a dictatorship would it not. The members would vote on all issues but who would govern the business of the Units? The Region? The IBT?

This is why the Units have "business" meetings to deal with all business that involves the members be it locally, regionally and Internationally.

PS you could not have picked a better word - "dysfunctional" as a descriptive of the present voting procedures - and I totally agree you.

However I do believe that members of the unit if all have cast their votes that the majority rules and the delegate takes the voice of the members of that Unit as ONE voice for or against regardless of the number of members per Unit. Units make up the WBCCI Structure the Members are what makes it tick...
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Old 03-27-2006, 10:18 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT6921
I did not say I agreed with this - but this is what the constitution is and approved by WBCCI. - As our Unit does not allow Proxy votes - for those who do not attend.

Now on the other side of the fence who are we to say what those other 137 votes should be i.e. 90 of them yes and and 47 no? As this is whatvote would be when the delegate casts - with the weighted vote of 207 137 to 70- so explain the difference - there is NONE.

And this unfair voting process will be this way until the Constitution is changed - to allow all to cast their vote.

What I am hearing from you is that we should by-pass the Unit on voting totally.
It seems to me that the only fair way to take the vote is to allow each membership (each WBCCI number) one vote and give each voting member a fair opportunity to vote whether in person at the business meeting, or by absentee ballot, mail, or internet voting. Each vote should count. What I was trying to say (and not doing a very good job of it ) was that whether the delegate places 1 vote yes/no for the unit, or 207 votes in some breakdown determined by the vote that was taken in the 70/207 voter example, it's still a decision made by a minority on behalf of a majority who never actually voted. I think we're in agreement that the WBCCI electoral process is broken, it's dysfunctional, but I thought I was hearing from you was that one way of doing it would be more fair than the other and I disagree with that. I believe that either way you do it, it's not a fair vote if all members don't have fair opportunity to hear all sides of the issue and place their vote.
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Old 03-27-2006, 10:25 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yukionna
Actually, the logo isn't a "given" and is subject to delegate vote too. Hypothetically, the name change to "AOAI" could go through and the logo COULD still fail.
Actually it seems clear some on the IBT were ready to change the logo at the last meeting but stopped short because it was an "emotional issue". Them believe they can so this by their own vote.
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Old 03-27-2006, 11:29 PM   #161
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One member, one vote

Thanks Bjoern,
that's my my thought, I don't need giant red numbers anyhow. I actually think they are rather gaudy. If someone starts a one member one vote Airstream club I'll join.

I don't know what I'm missing not reading the Blue Beret, I've never seen a copy as you had to own an Airstream to subscribe. Now I own one and can't get past the full dues / no vote nonsense.

I would have voted NO!!

One member, one vote
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Old 03-27-2006, 11:45 PM   #162
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Hi safari64, I felt the same way, but made the move to jump off the fence and to let my one vote be heard. It's members like you and I that can make a differance in the future of this club. The one's who got the, I could give a damn attitude are the one's who have been carried all there lives, and have the attitude if it's not broken don't fix it and if it is, fix it but half BUTT, I wanted to use the other but don't want any issues with the Mod's.
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Old 03-28-2006, 12:02 AM   #163
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We call those kinds Lemmings... I would rather see people who support the change or like myself, don't support it. But one should never just accept something like this without thinking about it first.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davidh
Hi safari64, I felt the same way, but made the move to jump off the fence and to let my one vote be heard. It's members like you and I that can make a differance in the future of this club. The one's who got the, I could give a damn attitude are the one's who have been carried all there lives, and have the attitude if it's not broken don't fix it and if it is fix it but half BUTT, I wanted to use the other but don't want any issues with the Mod's.
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Old 03-28-2006, 12:15 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT
Come on Shari -- you've lived through this in-person. Shed some light here because I can't even decipher what's going on here anymore...
As much faith as Leo has in me, I am not an expert in overall voting precidents and proceedures. I am just an ordinary member who has been involved in the Denver Colorado Unit for the last 5 years. As the 2005 President and Delegate, I attended the 2005 Delegates Meeting representing our Unit, so I had to figure out how things worked. I can tell you this, each Unit has it's own Constitution and Bylaws...I can only share how the DenCO Unit is set-up with regards to voting an delegate representation.

In part, our Constitution reads:

"Article VI - Business Meetings, Section 7 - A mail ballot may be used to obtain the vote of the members of the Unit on a proposal when such is deemed desirable or necessary. When a mail ballot is used to obtain the vote of the members of the Unit on a proposal, no other method of voting on such proposal shall be utilized."

and in part, our Bylaws read:

"Article VI - Delegates, Section 2 - The determination of the vote to be cast by the delegate on all proposed amendments to the Constitution of the International Club and for the election of International Officers shall be by a counted vote at any regular meeting or any special meeting called in accordance with Article VI, of the Constitution. The delate shall be bound by the results indicated by the counted vote or the vote expressed as a percentage of votes FOR and AGAINST and the results applied to the total entitled vote of the unit." (the entitled vote of the unit = the number of paid memberships)

"Section 3 - A mail ballot may be authorized by the Executive Board in lieu of the counted vote taken at a regular or special meeting and such ballot shall be mailed to all regular members by first class mail at least sixty days prior to the annual meeting of the delegates and shall be returned to the unit Recording Secretary on or before the date of the next regular or special meeting called for that purpose. The mail ballots shall be counted at such regular meeting or special meeting and the results applied as indicated in Section 2 of this article."

Click on the links at the bottom of the homepage to view the DenCO Constitution & Bylaws in full.

As the current Past President, I am still on the Executive Board of the DenCO Unit for 2006. At our April Executive Board Meeting, the Board will be voting whether or not to endorse a mail-in ballot vote for this year's motions. It is expected to be approved overwhelmingly by the Board, after which the ballots will be mailed to all 90+ of our members. The sealed ballots will be returned either by mail or in person to the Corresponding Secretary prior to our May Meeting/Rally. They will be opened and counted by a committee of tellers composed equally of a person(s) for and person(s) against and witnessed by the Corresponding Secretary at the May Rally immediately prior to the Regular Business meeting. The result will be made public and the delegate will be directed how to register our vote on all the issues at International in June.

Hope this helps answer some of your questions ~

Shari
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Old 03-28-2006, 05:41 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsideOut
As much faith as Leo has in me, I am not an expert in overall voting precidents and proceedures. I am just an ordinary member who has been involved in the Denver Colorado Unit for the last 5 years...Shari
Very good explanation, Shari. Karma for you! Good to see that your unit is moving to a mail ballot for this issue. How are you getting the information out to people who might not be up on all the buzz on the internet? Also, when you take a vote at your business meeting, do your bylaws require a quorum be present to make the bigger decisions?

Thanks again! -J
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Old 03-28-2006, 08:05 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT
First that was a bad example by the mere fact that you have more YES votes than NO votes...

Let's fix this but good!

207 members
70 attend the business meeting and vote
55 vote NO (now we're talking!)
15 vote YES
15/70 = 21.4% of the unit votes YES
55/70 = 78.6% of the unit votes NO (Don't you just LOVE it!)
so your unit casts:
207*.214= 44.3 votes YES
207*.786= 162.7 votes NO

Majority wins and you round up and down so you wind up with 44 votes for YES and 163 votes for NO.

Any takers?

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which ever way you slice it - if JUST ONE Local Unit chooses not exercise a ballot vote(one vote per member) - the overal voting process - will be unfair.

And eligible votes - will be cast either by "percentage" of cast votes or used in a Majority Yes or No.

Our Consitution is almost verbatim of Shari's - I think the WBCCI gave out a model to follow years back - and not too much has been changed. Infact I wonder how many Units actually update their constitutions when there have been amendments in the past - like the amendements from last year - they are not showing up in our Constitution yet.

From what I have heard - our Unit will not be doing a "Mail Ballot" - however instead of a show of hands (which is so so out of this world) eligible voters will be issued a voters tab that will be collected. But we will still have the issue that only those present will be able to vote and those not present and eligible to vote will be counted in as a "Percentage" Which as far as I am concerned is still WRONG.

I think we also have to take into consideration those eligible that simply just choose NOT to cast their vote - and these should be abstensions. But we are counting them in with the percentage!!!!

I would like to request a mail vote - but as stated in our constitution it is up to the Board to deem it " desirable and necessary" - if ever there is a time this would be a good day for all units to exercise this one - or better still - the IBT could have deemed it "desirable and necessary" as the higher level of "Government".

Time and money now are an issue. But then how about a motion at the business meeting of the Unit to Call for a Ballot Vote and direct our local Boards to take the time to complete the vote before they head to the International.

Our problem too - is the people taking the votes and some of our Board are heading out early like 1 month to reach the other side of the continent thus who will be around to administer the process. There are always good reasons why. And for another reason stated - "we do not want to set a precedent" we have voted on issues in this manner from the beginning and our members have never complained".

There is always a first time...

Doing my best to keep an even keel - I have just been asked on behalf of the Executive to speak against the IBT recommendation at our coming business meeting and have 10 minutes to state the NO side. Wish me luck...

Anybody out there into constitutions - maybe a side committee of this forum could hash out some stuff that we could present to IBT or our Regions for future constitutional amendments????or at least recommendations to the Committee that was assigned the same time as the Name Change Task Force Committee.

Shari thanks for posting your C&B-L's I would do mine but the Board do not take kindly for the members to step out of bounds - guess I will have to jump in sometime to have that privilege

Well one thing is for sure folks - I can guarentee that MORE members are aware of their voting rights this year - and the current process (whether totally fair or not) and maybe more questions will arise from the ranks - to say hey - there are members out there that want to vote but can not get to a Rally or meeting to vote - and we all want to cast our vote if we so choose and if we choose not to then do not count my vote with everyone elses let it stand as an abstension.
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Old 03-28-2006, 09:05 AM   #167
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Well one thing is for sure folks - I can guarentee that MORE members are aware of their voting rights this year - and the current process (whether totally fair or not) and maybe more questions will arise from the ranks - to say hey - there are members out there that want to vote but can not get to a Rally or meeting to vote - and we all want to cast our vote if we so choose and if we choose not to then do not count my vote with everyone elses let it stand as an abstension.
That certainly is my view of it all. You can't crunch and quote numbers and bander a supposition to majority unless the vote truly reflects real votes.

I am hoping regardless of the name change outcome that members will still press to make all information from the top down acessible, as well as a two way street from the ranks up, and voting procedures standard throughout all units with mail ballots and internet voting linked to a central database by every WBCCI number. If that has to be outsourced then so be it. I find that a better use of my membership dollars than flags, decals, and reimbursements.
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Old 03-28-2006, 10:07 AM   #168
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NAMES--NUMBERS--PROTOCOL !!!!!
It seems I've been reading this thread since the begining of time. While it's interesting reading it seems that this is all about beating a dead horse. I would bet dollars to donuts this is a done deal. I don't see how you could come to any other conclusion. If you read anything from the leadership of this organization it's pretty clear they are bias and not really concerned what the membership thinks. The problems this club has are much deeper than any name change. Example: In the Feb BB the president, Jim Franklin scolds
members for not putting numbers on their trailers. According to him we are "irresponsible"! That is followed by Dona Garner's article on MEMBERSHIP where she writes a full page on FLAG PROTOCOL !!!! I don't even own a "stinkin'" flag . Please tell me what in the world this has to do with membership????? She also mentions there has been a decrease of 7.5 percent in membership this year, WELL DUHHHHH!!!!!
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