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Old 07-01-2007, 01:31 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT6921
Hey Kristine - I don't know all the details of this effort - I have stayed away from it - cause I can fly opinions with the best of them. But I would like to think that this whole thing was not just about a few executive members. That it went well beyond just the WBCCI and was most likely somesort of pushing from the Thor wings of power. Might even be something along the lines of using IBT as pawns possibly and the WBCCI membership base as the source for acceptance of the fact that Airstream is owned by THOR and thus the "club" should be owned by THOR as well - possibly.....
Being first year WBCCi members, third year Airstream owners and understandingly not aware of all the internal politics and linkage between the WBCCI and Thor we wonder if Thor really sees the WBCCI as an attraction for thier high dollar motorhome and trailer owners. Greater than half of the motorhome and trailer owners we know and meet don't know they still make Airstreams and none of them know what the Wally Byam Caravan Club international or WBCCI is! Further, many are concerned that they couldn't camp, RV or live with so little space and amenities. These same motorhome and trailer owners seem to have an entirely different pattern of travel than many Airstream owners.

We haven't made any converts yet even thought we have tried. We can't even convince many of them to abandon the freeways and travel the backroads, abandon or supplement the commercial venues for the local, state and national parks and consider using their rigs built in features without electrical, water and sewer hookups. Many even see Airstream owners as somewhat eccentric (that's OK by us, we also own several BMW motorcycles and one of us has been a member of that eccentric hobbiest group and commuted almost everyday to work for more than 30 years). Even the Mandalay club seem to believe that their members would not be attracted to the WBCCI rather than their brand only club.

So what's our point? Given that Thor is the self stated largest manufacturer of motorhomes and trailers why would they believe that the WBCCI would be attractive to their other owners? Those with the more exclusive and expensive brands already seem to have some brand linked club and many people now days are not joiners; don't want to be part of a group, don't want to be stuck helping or being a participating member; don't feel they have anything in common with other members, don't have the time.

This all could have been a sincere IBT initiated attempt to enable many of the core participating members to continue to belong. If many or all of the IBT board drive motorhomes they may rightly fear that their leaving the club over time would leave a vacuum which would not be filled by other members willing to volunteer their time and efforst on behalf the WBCCI.

Jut our thoughts, don't see the Thor connection but keeping an open mind for the evidence.
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Old 07-01-2007, 02:02 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Motoman
. . . If many or all of the IBT board drive motorhomes they may rightly fear that their leaving the club over time would leave a vacuum which would not be filled by other members willing to volunteer their time and efforst on behalf the WBCCI. .
I think the "Volunteerism" thing that Shafer was talking about yesterday rings true with your comments. If the MOHOs loaned to the officers are a reward for the time and effort they put into the club, then I think it is a nice perk.

Defeat of the MOHO ammendment will make it harder to recruit top rank officers, if their reward is use of a $90K Classic Trailer instead of a $400K motorhome.
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Old 07-01-2007, 02:02 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azflycaster
That piece will have to be "fixed" at the local unit level. .......
NOPE that has to be fixed in the Constitution - you stated the voting procedures earlier in this thread to me - and that is what directs the local units.

Instead of the terrible waist of time and money this club has spent on the name change and the MOHO issue - this flawed constitution could have been completely revamped.

Another reality folks - is that NOT EVERYONE is cut out to belong to a CLUB.

The 1000 in and 1200 out membership averages is not a growth figure but it is not a seriously dwindling number either. This club reached a plateau and has struggled with its member numbers since - just as many other clubs do.

This number is also based on new sales purchases - but what about the USED market sales for new Airstream owners??? how can that statistic every be captured.

And the Vintage Market - through the VAC how do their memberships rank - having to be a wbcci member in order to join the VAC rule - how potential members does that deter!!! Huge I am sure. Why because there are several vintage/old trailer clubs out their that are not run the way this club is. And just look at the structure and how the VAC fits into the big picture - hmmm just a single joke I would say. Same with the other intra-clubs. I asked my local unit once what were the intra-clubs all about and they looked at me as if I was from Mars.


Structure Structure Structure - the whole thing is broke - find the good parts keep them trash the rest and start over....or better still go back to all the posts in 2004 and you we read the same stuff we are doing now over and over and over -
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Old 07-01-2007, 02:36 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markdoane
I think the "Volunteerism" thing that Shafer was talking about yesterday rings true with your comments. If the MOHOs loaned to the officers are a reward for the time and effort they put into the club, then I think it is a nice perk.

Defeat of the MOHO ammendment will make it harder to recruit top rank officers, if their reward is use of a $90K Classic Trailer instead of a $400K motorhome.
Do IBT members in fact receive an Airstream, either motorhome or travel trailer, on loan from Airstream during their time on the board? That might change our opinion on what Thor would gain.
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Old 07-01-2007, 02:44 PM   #75
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I've seen that reported from more than one source, but i have no firsthand knowlege. I think the officers get use of either a Classic Trailer or a Motorhome while in office, and get to purchase it at the end of the term.

What does Thor gain? Darn little. I think it would be carried as an expense. And probably an expense for Airstream marketing, rather than Thor.

That begs the question of why you would continue to pay for something that says "our trailers aren't good enough for the WBCCI officers, so we put them in a Four Winds Motorhome". I still think Airstream is glad the motion failed, and had nothing to do with promoting the idea of the Four Winds ammendment. I will change my opinion if someone has a good argument for why Airstream or Thor would have wanted it to pass.
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Old 07-01-2007, 02:52 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motoman
Do IBT members in fact receive an Airstream, either motorhome or travel trailer, on loan from Airstream during their time on the board? That might change our opinion on what Thor would gain.




I did not believe such a thing either , but it sure would be a big motivating factor now would'nt it.

I am starting to see the little light....

It is a privilage for the IBT to serve its members not the other way around!!!
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Old 07-01-2007, 03:18 PM   #77
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In our unit the actual voting numbers are to be apportioned to the active membership numbers. If 20 members voted "yes" and ten members voted "no" and our unit membership is 50, then the reported votes at International would be 33 "yes" and 17 "no". However, our President only reported the "yes" votes. In my example that would be 20 votes. We are still going to have our discussion. His voting record does not reflect the true feelings within his unit.
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Old 07-01-2007, 03:38 PM   #78
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My former unit president flipflopped the name change vote as delegate after the amendment. I believe there was nothing insidious about it but the margin for error and miscommunication is too great as the present system stands. So much of this could be alleviated with simpler and specific votes per member.

Not sure precisely on what to type for the search engine but an officer from the Classic Airstream intraclub TincanTom mentioned the fall out from Thor withholding the vehicle perk during the term that AS manufactured motorhomes were originally voted down for acceptance in the WBCCI, think it was his friend's turn to have received it. After AS motorhomes were finally voted into the WBCCI, the perk magically reappeared.

Craftsman2 made a post about his conversation with a dealer about how unhappy the dealer was to sell units to WBCCI officers for the ridiculously large discounted amounts.

I have heard on several occassions about the huge ($100,000.+) contributions to WBCCI from Airstream, that can't be all travel cups and key chains and pens can it?

I want to know why we cannot be solvent regardless of the number of members we have in the WBCCI. Why do we need to be threatened with higher membership fees instead of cutting the spending? Camping is all about making do and improvising. (Alright, granted, on a grander scale in an Airstream! )
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Old 07-01-2007, 03:48 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grannyred
In our unit the actual voting numbers are to be apportioned to the active membership numbers. If 20 members voted "yes" and ten members voted "no" and our unit membership is 50, then the reported votes at International would be 33 "yes" and 17 "no". However, our President only reported the "yes" votes. In my example that would be 20 votes. We are still going to have our discussion. His voting record does not reflect the true feelings within his unit.
So you must belong to either the Texas Hill Country Unit, the Texas Plains Unit, or the Top of Texas Unit. Those are the only three Texas Units that reported only "Yes" votes (22, 21 and 21 respectively) and zero "No" votes.

But in reviewing Richard's spread sheet on Unit voting available here: http://www.airforums.com/forums/atta...3&d=1183227703, I don't see any instance of any Unit in Region 9 announcing a total number of votes less than the total number of votes to which such Unit was entitled. So there is no evidence of any Texas Unit holding back or shortchanging "no" votes by not announcing any "no" votes at the Delegates meeting. Perhaps you unit uses "block voting" in casting the member's vote? Could that be your concern? Please clarify. Thanks!
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Old 07-01-2007, 04:54 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motoman
Being first year WBCCi members, third year Airstream owners and understandingly not aware of all the internal politics and linkage between the WBCCI and Thor we wonder if Thor really sees the WBCCI as an attraction for thier high dollar motorhome and trailer owners. Greater than half of the motorhome and trailer owners we know and meet don't know they still make Airstreams and none of them know what the Wally Byam Caravan Club international or WBCCI is! Further, many are concerned that they couldn't camp, RV or live with so little space and amenities. These same motorhome and trailer owners seem to have an entirely different pattern of travel than many Airstream owners.


We haven't made any converts yet even thought we have tried. We can't even convince many of them to abandon the freeways and travel the backroads, abandon or supplement the commercial venues for the local, state and national parks and consider using their rigs built in features without electrical, water and sewer hookups. Many even see Airstream owners as somewhat eccentric (that's OK by us, we also own several BMW motorcycles and one of us has been a member of that eccentric hobbiest group and commuted almost everyday to work for more than 30 years). Even the Mandalay club seem to believe that their members would not be attracted to the WBCCI rather than their brand only club.
We have noticed the same thing: our friends who do not own Airstreams are not interested in owning one. They think it is small and the space their trailer provides is almost like being at home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motoman
This all could have been a sincere IBT initiated attempt to enable many of the core participating members to continue to belong. If many or all of the IBT board drive motorhomes they may rightly fear that their leaving the club over time would leave a vacuum which would not be filled by other members willing to volunteer their time and efforst on behalf the WBCCI.
I am not hearing that there aren't people who are willing to volunteer their time on behalf of the WBCCI. Our unit appears to be full of willing volunteers and with other organizations I have discovered that sometimes it takes the people who are always volunteering to back off a bit for others to step up. More often then not what I see happen is that the persons already in place aren't willing to let someone else step in and do things different then they did and in some cases they really like the perks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motoman
Jut our thoughts, don't see the Thor connection but keeping an open mind for the evidence.
I am trying to keep an open mind about this also and it would be very enlightening to learn what the benefits (financial and other) really are for holding an IBT position.
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:00 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markdoane
I think the "Volunteerism" thing that Shafer was talking about yesterday rings true with your comments. If the MOHOs loaned to the officers are a reward for the time and effort they put into the club, then I think it is a nice perk.

Defeat of the MOHO ammendment will make it harder to recruit top rank officers, if their reward is use of a $90K Classic Trailer instead of a $400K motorhome.
Maybe I am stupid, but why should they get this kind of a perk at all? Isn't this a camping club and don't we all buy our own Airstream? Don't they get their camping fees and mileage paid for while traveling and seeing this beautiful country?
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:05 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy
Maybe I am stupid, but why should they get this kind of a perk at all? Isn't this a camping club and don't we all buy our own Airstream? Don't they get their camping fees and mileage paid for while traveling and seeing this beautiful country?
Not stupid at all. What a crock. Vote em all out and change the rules!
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:23 PM   #83
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There are a number of well run camping organizations, Escapees comes to mind,
which, by the way was started by a former WBCCI member.

Officers have no extra privileges, in fact you would not even no you were conversing with an officer unless you asked or were told.

Models ARE out there, the wheel does not need to be reinvented.
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Old 07-01-2007, 10:10 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markdoane
I've seen that reported from more than one source, but i have no firsthand knowlege. I think the officers get use of either a Classic Trailer or a Motorhome while in office, and get to purchase it at the end of the term.
This is not true.

As a club officer (IBT) IF they wish to buy a NEW unit to travel in Airstream used to extend a 5% discount off list to the member. That is the only "deal" that they get. If you can't get a dealer to come off list by 5% then have I got something to sell ya! I don't know if this program is still in place. They DO NOT get to use one for a year and purchase it at the end of the year.
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