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Old 01-23-2007, 09:37 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Leipper
All Units are one member one vote.
But read the fine print before joining. Being a unit member gives you the right to vote, but not necessarily the ability to vote. Many units require that you be in attendance to vote at the business meeting and make no provision for absentee voting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
There has been no circumstance yet produced that illustrate a problem with the current mechanisms that could be solved by eliminating the affiliate member (MAL) class. This implies that the 1M1V issue is constructed and contrived and not tied to real issues.
Fair and equal treatment for all dues paying members is enough for me. I haven't seen any good argument yet for leaving MALs out of the voting process. In fact, I haven't seen any argument at all for this except that they aren't unit members.

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Originally Posted by Leipper
Also keep in mind that these issues involve an extremely small portion of the total membership. From what I can tell, it is much less than 1% of the membership that even thinks it worth enough to even show up in these discussions.
Which issues involve only a small portion of the total membership? How was the 1% figure derived? How have you determined whether or not members are "showing up in these discussions" based on the worthiness of whatever issues it is you're talking about?
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Old 01-31-2007, 10:44 AM   #30
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Can someone tell me what the procedure is for moving out of a WBCCI unit and into a new one? Would I need to contact WBCCI headquarters to do this?

-Jamie
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Old 01-31-2007, 11:12 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougjamie
Can someone tell me what the procedure is for moving out of a WBCCI unit and into a new one? Would I need to contact WBCCI headquarters to do this?

-Jamie
Contact the unit you want to join and they will do the paperwork for you. It can be done at anytime during the year.
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Old 01-31-2007, 11:52 AM   #32
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A forum member sent me a private message to say that I should contact WBCCI HQ to get the correct procedure on switching units, so I did. (Thanks to that person for letting me know who to call!)

I found out that you cannot switch units mid-year if you've already sent in dues for the year. The only time you can truly switch is at the end of the year when the membership term is up and you just re-register for the next year with your new unit. You can become an affiliate of any unit at any time during the year, but your home unit stays.

I also learned something else when I called. The reason that you can't switch your main unit during the year is because that is where your vote is registered and your vote can't be moved. You must do your voting through your home unit, and the unit cannot deny you your right to vote on the basis of not being able to vote in person at the business meeting. In other words, the unit must provide a way for you to vote in absentia if the vote is held at a business meeting and you cannot attend.

So to anyone who was thinking about finding a new unit where they could vote because they can't get to all the meetings in their current unit, apparently it's an unnecessary move. You just have to find out from your unit how they will collect your absentee ballot.
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Old 01-31-2007, 11:57 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougjamie
A forum member sent me a private message to say that I should contact WBCCI HQ to get the correct procedure on switching units, so I did. (Thanks to that person for letting me know who to call!)

I found out that you cannot switch units mid-year if you've already sent in dues for the year. The only time you can truly switch is at the end of the year when the membership term is up and you just re-register for the next year with your new unit. You can become an affiliate of any unit at any time during the year, but your home unit stays.

I also learned something else when I called. The reason that you can't switch your main unit during the year is because that is where your vote is registered and your vote can't be moved. You must do your voting through your home unit, and the unit cannot deny you your right to vote on the basis of not being able to vote in person at the business meeting. In other words, the unit must provide a way for you to vote in absentia if the vote is held at a business meeting and you cannot attend.

So to anyone who was thinking about finding a new unit where they could vote because they can't get to all the meetings in their current unit, apparently it's an unnecessary move. You just have to find out from your unit how they will collect your absentee ballot.
The absentee voting information is fantastic, but I am sure that some members will have problems inforcing that fact. Perhaps more information, such as who to quote at headquarters, a letter to all unit presidents, an announcement in the Blue Beret, the section of the bylaws and/or constitution which gives this right, would be helpful for members who might have problems with this right.

Contrary to popular opinion, not all WBCCI members read this forum.

Bill
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Old 01-31-2007, 12:28 PM   #34
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Bill and Jamie that is great information! I am glad to hear it, even surprised. Good work Jamie and sensible steps to insure that Bill.Yes implimenting it might be difficult depending on the unit. Maybe votes should be mailed directly to headquarters then for certain they are counted, and kept private. Hmmm how to get that information out? Now do we know of any members that are willing to volunteer to take on spreading the word?
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Old 01-31-2007, 12:47 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by wheel interested
Bill and Jamie that is great information! I am glad to hear it, even surprised. Good work Jamie and sensible steps to insure that Bill.Yes implimenting it might be difficult depending on the unit. Maybe votes should be mailed directly to headquarters then for certain they are counted, and kept private.
I agree! It would be a heck of a lot easier on the units if HQ would just handle the mailing out and collecting of ballots. The office I talked to (Jody, in membership) seemed surprised that any unit would even suggest they would only take a member's vote in person. They said they would be contacting my unit president to let him know that absentee balloting had to be provided for members.

-J
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Old 01-31-2007, 12:50 PM   #36
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But read the fine print before joining. Being a unit member gives you the right to vote, but not necessarily the ability to vote. Many units require that you be in attendance to vote at the business meeting and make no provision for absentee voting.
'Reading the fine print' a.k.a. Caveat emptor (Wikipedia) is always good advice when you get particularly concerned about what you are doing. It is the critical issue behind the whole MAL brouhaha as some folks didn't read the fine print (or were misled in some cases) and then decided that they wanted something different.

The core of this issue involves matters of quality and accountability. That gets to the SaveWally comments as well as the various requirements and methods for voting. Being able to vote is a privilege and not a right. To earn that privilege, you need to meet certain requirements such as membership and participation and, perhaps, other verifications of credibility or quality. In return, the outcome of an election gains its credibility and responsibility for the organization as a whole. These are often, in turn, accountable to the state (that is, society at large) if it is an incorporated entity.

Each of the qualifications and conditions for voting are worth understanding and considering. Why just members? Why require attendance? Why provide for non-voting participation (i.e. MAL's)? All of these issues have significant historical experience and consideration in organizations. A good decision requires understanding and not platitudes.

The attempt to dismiss questions as irrelevant or quash "lectures" and attack style of message and the messenger as so often seen in these discussions should give good material for consideration by anyone seriously considering 'virtual' or absentee participation, for instance. Addressing the need to properly consider all points of view and aspects of an issue is why there are rules of order that have to be agreed upon and enforced.

Quote:
I haven't seen any good argument yet for leaving MALs out of the voting process.
I can't think of anything better than the fact that they chose to join as a member at large rather than as a voting member. If a person's individual choice is not a good argument for what they choose to do, what is a good argument? It seems to me the onus should be on those who want to take that choice away from them to explain why a choice should be disallowed.

Quote:
Which issues involve only a small portion of the total membership? How was the 1% figure derived?
Figure about 400 total participants in these forums in a month compared to something in excess of 12,000 or so people involved in WBCCI membership. Then look at this class of threads and count the user ID's who actually post. Are there 120 participants in this thread voting with their keyboard?

Quote:
"All units are one member one vote" is simply not true. I think we all know that. I truly hope you were saying this tongue in cheek. Just to provoke
Hey! wait a minute. Provoke is my job! ;-) (but hopefully in a constructive manner)

It is getting to a very strange definition of vote if the assertion is not true. Will you please provide me the constitution or bylaws of the Unit that does not invest voting rights in its qualified members? The only way I can see this is to pick at membership qualifications and standards and that is a different issue.

Quote:
So to anyone who was thinking about finding a new unit...
This brings up an intersting and very sensitive issue. Considering the goals, mission, and purpose of WBCCI, why would this be a very big priority warranting immediate action? The current structure provides for members to attend all affiliated functions. It provides for affiliate memberships in multiple Units. It is one thing to have a preference for the company of a group that is more to your liking but entirely another to put as a priority in your life to be intolerant of a _group_ because of differences in style or personal grudge. A purpose of the WBCCI is for each of us to find friendship in others, not to take our toys and set up our own little cliques. Sometimes finding friendship isn't easy but that is one of the responsibilities we undertake when we join. And, as you might note, the clique problem is not just one for those who want to change Units. It runs deeper than that.

What is the purpose of a Unit in the WBCCI? What functions does it serve to further the goals, mission, purpose, and identity of the organization?

The MAL voting issue has to be evaluated in light of a serious discussion of these issues if we want the outcome to have a positive impact on the organization rather than merely an appeasement of a few individuals personal goals.
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Old 01-31-2007, 01:43 PM   #37
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You are correct.

You are correct on current members of a "Unit". If you are a "MAL" you can switch during mid year.
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Old 01-31-2007, 03:03 PM   #38
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Leipper

Regarding the 3rd to last paragraph of your post above.

I can see why someone would wish to change Units. It may be because the new Unit camps in a style that fits them better. The social activities fit them better. It may be because they do or do not have children and they want to or do not want to camp with children.

As a member you and your Unit should fit each other. Members happy with their Units would I suspect participate more often Which should help that Unit grow.

I would not recommend changing Units because of the usual minor conflicts of life. Instead settle them and enjoy your Unit.

There are valid non emotional reasons to change your Unit.

And of course you would want your dues money to go to where you enjoy yourself the most.
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Old 01-31-2007, 03:50 PM   #39
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I can see why someone would wish to change Units.
But my question was "why would this be a very big priority warranting immediate action?"

One of the great features of WBCCI is in having a choice and many opportunities to explore. I always try to make sure that rally visitors interested in membership are aware of other Units nearby with different styles and encourage them, and even our own members, to visit those Units and see how they do things. Sometimes they gain a new appreciation for how we do things. Sometimes they tell us they found a way that better suits them. Sometimes they 'infest' us with new ideas to try. It's a win all the way around for everyone.

That is the issue here. If an MAL puts politics and voting at the top of his or her priorities, they have choices they can make. They have options to exercise that already exist in order accomplish the title of this thread if they want to. There are existing methods to suit their 'style' or preference and that has to be a good thing, I'd think.
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Old 01-31-2007, 04:23 PM   #40
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Well, as a former SNU member, I say that I do not agree with Bryan. I can say that while we were members of the SNU, other members discussed topics like visiting other units and more specifically having cooperative rallies and such. In those discussions, there was a lot of "Yea, but..." statements and to date as I have seen and while I was a member anyway, it never happened. On the outside, many units look like a polished penny but on the inside it really can be another matter.

I am going to look into this Jamie but I do believe that the information you were given may not exactly be correct. These issues should be covered by the either the constitution and/or the Blue Book, both of which we do have a copy of and should also now be available on WBCCI's own web site.

As an example, if a person came into WBCCI in, say, April, to a unit, would they have a vote? Of Course they would. So if a member switches units mid year, it is more like a new member to the prospective unit and that member should still have a vote. They should not have to try to vote in the old unit where it will probably not be practical OR where there is a trust issue (my case).

We got (or are in the process of getting out) of the SNU and I for one can say that nobody should have to subject themselves to an uncomfortable situation just to have the right to vote.
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:36 PM   #41
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How many units are there? (147?)
Does anyone know how each unit votes?
There are over 160 units. Each unit chooses how they vote. There is no comprehensive directory of how each unit votes that I know of. Perhaps the main WBCCI office has one. You could send an email and see (email is on wbcci website).
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Old 01-31-2007, 06:40 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougjamie
Can someone tell me what the procedure is for moving out of a WBCCI unit and into a new one? Would I need to contact WBCCI headquarters to do this?

-Jamie
Oh no! Are you thinking of leaving us????
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