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Old 04-15-2011, 08:31 PM   #15
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John, the Constitution in and of itself will not address all the issues, but many.

The Revised bylaws will address many issues, I hesitate to say all because they will be amended over time.

It will be the combination of both.

Now I know you mentioned you want to see the new bylaws, but they can't be finished until the Constitution is in its final form after the delegates adopt it.

Point 1 the constitution as revised will allow the members to amend it.

Point 2 the bylaws may only be amended by the IBT, not the members.

Point 3 will that (to use your words) fix things, likely not the way the members want.

Unless at the delegates meeting the Constitution has a proposed Metro NY Unit amendment passed to enable the members that ability.

.
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Old 04-15-2011, 10:25 PM   #16
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"Point 2 the bylaws may only be amended by the IBT, not the members."

I thought the "Revision Committee" had a rough draft already, how can that be if "only" the IBT can amend the Bylaws? Do they have secret powers nobody knows about? What about all the power the New Constitution gives the general membership?

The Revision Committee was created by the IP which will be not be in office in a few months and there's nothing in writing saying the new IP will continue this committee and there's nothing in writing saying the IBT will even listen to a single word they say anyway.

Looks like old Norm plays a good hand of poker and does it with a straight face to boot!


Quick question to anyone that might know,

Does anyone know what the magic membership number is when the WBCCI has to start letting the girls in the office go, funds start the death spin down and this whole thing goes down back to the point of a few people giving their time (no travel $$) to try and get out a newsletter like back in the begining?

5000, 4000, 3000, 2000, 1000????
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Old 04-15-2011, 10:36 PM   #17
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but after reading the posts, I can't help but remember the infamous Nancy Pelosi quote, "we have to pass this bill so we know what's in it".
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Old 04-16-2011, 07:07 AM   #18
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changing bylaws

Posted by LI Pets

Point 2 the bylaws may only be amended by the IBT, not the members


This one item if not changed would be a giant step backwards from where we are now and would be a deal breaker for me, even with all the other good things in the new constitution
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:36 AM   #19
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Rick,
I agree with you and suggest the fix is to ask our delegates to amend this article or refuse to ratify the document.

The business meeting at our local unit's rally one week ago included a brief discussion of the proposed constitution. No had read it, most hadn't seen it, very few expressed any interest in it.

Some of us agreed to participate in trying to make sense of what will and won't work in the document -- not an easy thing but we must try.

64 dollar question is, how many important sticking points are there and can we find them? We'll try.
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:02 AM   #20
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You people dont think for one minute that those folks in high places are gonna let someone with a new constitution take away the money that they spend on so called travel expenses that lets them travel all over the US fer free Do ya. Then you are kiddin yourself. THEY take the dues money of hard working people and spend it on so called travel expenses.
Several yrs ago I had a unit pres tell me to my face that THIER TRIP to the National Convention out west somewhere didn't cost them ANY THING.
THEM PEOPLE AINT GONNA LET ANYONE TAKE THAT AWAY. TRUST ME!
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:31 AM   #21
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So--perhaps those of you who believe in the redemptive powers of Roberts Rules of Order, Newly Revised, can explain to those of us who don't, how this proposed new constitution is going to "fix the WBCCI"?
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Once again the WBCCI leadership gives Roberts Rules of Order a bad name. Roberts Rules only apply to meetings, and the only business that can be conducted at such meetings is through the process of motions, debate, and voting, that is the deliberative process. Anything that takes place outside of such a meeting has absolutely nothing to do with Roberts Rules!

The Members Caucus for instance is just a seminar, and will not deliberate because it does not do "business." There will be no motions, debate, and subsequent vote. So, Roberts Rules are not necessary and shouldn't even be used in that setting.

Likewise, Direct Voting and the proposed amendment process do not take place in a meeting. Without a meeting there is no use for Roberts Rules.

Roberts Rules are specifically designed to protect and give every member a voice. The WBCCI has mis-used Roberts Rules for decades by using it solely to exercise control. Now they are using it to eliminate deliberative meetings and at the same time claim that is allowed by Roberts Rules. What a farce!

Don't blame Roberts Rules for anything the WBCCI does. If your understanding of it is based on WBCCI practices, then you do not understand what it really is.
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Old 04-16-2011, 12:58 PM   #22
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You people dont think for one minute that those folks in high places are gonna let someone with a new constitution take away the money that they spend on so called travel expenses that lets them travel all over the US fer free Do ya. Then you are kiddin yourself. THEY take the dues money of hard working people and spend it on so called travel expenses.
Several yrs ago I had a unit pres tell me to my face that THIER TRIP to the National Convention out west somewhere didn't cost them ANY THING.
THEM PEOPLE AINT GONNA LET ANYONE TAKE THAT AWAY. TRUST ME!
I don't agree. Yes, part of travel expenses for some leaders are paid. I have talked with several that noted that the amount they were reimbursed in no way covered their total expenses. As far as I know, you have never been a member of WBCCI, so I don't believe you have any first hand knowledge of what you claim to know about. Even if one unit president actually told you what you are repeating here, I have heard differently from many Unit and Regional officers over my many years in the club.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:35 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
John, the Constitution in and of itself will not address all the issues, but many.

Point 3 will that (to use your words) fix things, likely not the way the members want.

.
Several comments have indicted age as a discriminator associated with "change" and/or resistance, i.e. the older among us are more resistant to change by virtue of our age. I do not believe that to be true. Change itself is incendiary.

Having "volunteered" for leadership positions in the past from the Red Cross the Nat'l Ski Patrol, and many other organizations, personal out-of-pocket expenses were enormous compared to any reimbursement. That experience "goes with the territory".

And lastly, what really do the members "want"? I can't seem to identify who wants what on these threads. All I can sense is "protectionism" for the status quo and intransigent resistance to any compromise or alteration in existing governance protocols.

Human nature seems to dictate the need for "power and control", and that is followed by "greed"....not for money, but for more power and control.

Again, what are the real issues, and who wants what out of this debate? Why are these discussions so polarizing?

Thanks for listening. Zigi
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Old 04-16-2011, 03:22 PM   #24
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At my job I work with many over 45 year olds and many more under 35s. Trust me the younger ones are much more resistant to change than the older group. Also the older group is much more willing to help the total group accomplish a task than the younger ones. Just my observations. zz
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Old 04-16-2011, 04:14 PM   #25
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In my work with professional, skilled and non-skilled individuals resistance to change did not appear to generally be attributed to age. Education (formal & informal) as well as native intelligence and teamwork to get the job done seemed to be the most important attributes. Self-confidence within their skill-sets together with modesty and open mindedness were important.

However when the insecure ones were challenged (or threatened) with a change they couldnít control a small few reacted negatively or dogmatically. That happens sometimes when they step out of their area of expertise and donít choose their battles well. Some can not be open-minded or neutral but feel a need to take sides.
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Old 04-16-2011, 04:30 PM   #26
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Open minded and neutral aren't the same thing; at the end of the day not taking a side can be far more harmful than not. Not acting in one form or another is in effect an endorsement of what is happening.

I do agree that age, per se, is not the problem. I suspect that CS Lewis got it right when he suggested that the desire to be a part of the inner ring and the impulse to defend that position is a major driver of bad behavior. This is quite independent of age.

I posted his talk on this topic in another thread. It takes a few minutes to read, but I think illuminates how people starting off with the best of motives, over time, become defenders of the indefensible.
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Old 04-16-2011, 04:47 PM   #27
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presentation

Today at the TN State Rally Joe Perryman gave an excellent presentation hitting the high points of the new constitution . There were perhaps 20 people in attendance from the 4 units represented at the rally
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Old 04-16-2011, 06:19 PM   #28
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Today at the TN State Rally Joe Perryman gave an excellent presentation hitting the high points of the new constitution . There were perhaps 20 people in attendance from the 4 units represented at the rally
20 people? Therein lies one aspect that may be problematic and indictative of a passive membership within the organization. Rick can you give us the highlights of those points? Why isn't there more of that kind of dissertation made available to others online? Scattering members is a very successful tool in stopping members from uniting and collective bargaining. Where is the WBCCI forum and representation for the mere member? And now we are asked to vote away delegates because...???

Boondocker I am going to put my thinking hat on and read your other thread's post. I appreciate your energy and posting. Examination I think is key to change and review. Speaking openly is also a necessary component of change. Thank you. I also agree there are many stiff necked youth and many agreeable older people the stereotyping just doesn't ring true.
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