Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-16-2011, 11:31 AM   #21
Rivet Master
 
Forrest's Avatar
 
1986 32' Excella
Aurora , Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 645
Images: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvite-F View Post
So--perhaps those of you who believe in the redemptive powers of Roberts Rules of Order, Newly Revised, can explain to those of us who don't, how this proposed new constitution is going to "fix the WBCCI"?
.
Once again the WBCCI leadership gives Roberts Rules of Order a bad name. Roberts Rules only apply to meetings, and the only business that can be conducted at such meetings is through the process of motions, debate, and voting, that is the deliberative process. Anything that takes place outside of such a meeting has absolutely nothing to do with Roberts Rules!

The Members Caucus for instance is just a seminar, and will not deliberate because it does not do "business." There will be no motions, debate, and subsequent vote. So, Roberts Rules are not necessary and shouldn't even be used in that setting.

Likewise, Direct Voting and the proposed amendment process do not take place in a meeting. Without a meeting there is no use for Roberts Rules.

Roberts Rules are specifically designed to protect and give every member a voice. The WBCCI has mis-used Roberts Rules for decades by using it solely to exercise control. Now they are using it to eliminate deliberative meetings and at the same time claim that is allowed by Roberts Rules. What a farce!

Don't blame Roberts Rules for anything the WBCCI does. If your understanding of it is based on WBCCI practices, then you do not understand what it really is.
__________________

__________________
Forrest
Out for coffee!
Forrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 12:58 PM   #22
Rivet Master
 
66Overlander's Avatar
 
1962 22' Safari
2016 30' Classic
Somewhere , in the USA
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,325
Images: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikethefixit View Post
You people dont think for one minute that those folks in high places are gonna let someone with a new constitution take away the money that they spend on so called travel expenses that lets them travel all over the US fer free Do ya. Then you are kiddin yourself. THEY take the dues money of hard working people and spend it on so called travel expenses.
Several yrs ago I had a unit pres tell me to my face that THIER TRIP to the National Convention out west somewhere didn't cost them ANY THING.
THEM PEOPLE AINT GONNA LET ANYONE TAKE THAT AWAY. TRUST ME!
I don't agree. Yes, part of travel expenses for some leaders are paid. I have talked with several that noted that the amount they were reimbursed in no way covered their total expenses. As far as I know, you have never been a member of WBCCI, so I don't believe you have any first hand knowledge of what you claim to know about. Even if one unit president actually told you what you are repeating here, I have heard differently from many Unit and Regional officers over my many years in the club.
__________________

__________________
Joe
Wally Byam Caravan Club International Historian
Vintage Airstream Club Historian
WBCCI/VAC #6768

66Overlander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 01:35 PM   #23
4 Rivet Member
 
Zigidachs's Avatar
 
2017 23' International
Ridgefield , Washington
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 297
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
John, the Constitution in and of itself will not address all the issues, but many.

Point 3 will that (to use your words) fix things, likely not the way the members want.

.
Several comments have indicted age as a discriminator associated with "change" and/or resistance, i.e. the older among us are more resistant to change by virtue of our age. I do not believe that to be true. Change itself is incendiary.

Having "volunteered" for leadership positions in the past from the Red Cross the Nat'l Ski Patrol, and many other organizations, personal out-of-pocket expenses were enormous compared to any reimbursement. That experience "goes with the territory".

And lastly, what really do the members "want"? I can't seem to identify who wants what on these threads. All I can sense is "protectionism" for the status quo and intransigent resistance to any compromise or alteration in existing governance protocols.

Human nature seems to dictate the need for "power and control", and that is followed by "greed"....not for money, but for more power and control.

Again, what are the real issues, and who wants what out of this debate? Why are these discussions so polarizing?

Thanks for listening. Zigi
Zigidachs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 03:22 PM   #24
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Gainesville , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,054
Blog Entries: 2
At my job I work with many over 45 year olds and many more under 35s. Trust me the younger ones are much more resistant to change than the older group. Also the older group is much more willing to help the total group accomplish a task than the younger ones. Just my observations. zz
xrvr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 04:14 PM   #25
AIR #8691
 
2006 25' Safari SS SE
Northern , Virginia
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 381
In my work with professional, skilled and non-skilled individuals resistance to change did not appear to generally be attributed to age. Education (formal & informal) as well as native intelligence and teamwork to get the job done seemed to be the most important attributes. Self-confidence within their skill-sets together with modesty and open mindedness were important.

However when the insecure ones were challenged (or threatened) with a change they couldnít control a small few reacted negatively or dogmatically. That happens sometimes when they step out of their area of expertise and donít choose their battles well. Some can not be open-minded or neutral but feel a need to take sides.
JStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 04:30 PM   #26
Naysayer
 
Boondocker's Avatar

 
1968 24' Tradewind
Louisville , earth
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,635
Images: 7
Send a message via Yahoo to Boondocker
Open minded and neutral aren't the same thing; at the end of the day not taking a side can be far more harmful than not. Not acting in one form or another is in effect an endorsement of what is happening.

I do agree that age, per se, is not the problem. I suspect that CS Lewis got it right when he suggested that the desire to be a part of the inner ring and the impulse to defend that position is a major driver of bad behavior. This is quite independent of age.

I posted his talk on this topic in another thread. It takes a few minutes to read, but I think illuminates how people starting off with the best of motives, over time, become defenders of the indefensible.
__________________
Rodney

Visit my photography page
and the
Favorite camp grounds project map
My Blog

(The artist formerly known as General Disarray)

Boondocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 04:47 PM   #27
Rivet Master
 
RickDavis's Avatar

 
1961 24' Tradewind
1969 29' Ambassador
1970 21' Globetrotter
Jamestown , Tennessee
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,781
presentation

Today at the TN State Rally Joe Perryman gave an excellent presentation hitting the high points of the new constitution . There were perhaps 20 people in attendance from the 4 units represented at the rally
__________________
Rick Davis 1602 K8DOC
61 tradewind, plus a few others
13 Ram 2500 TD
99 Dodge TD 577K miles

RickDavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 06:19 PM   #28
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDavis View Post
Today at the TN State Rally Joe Perryman gave an excellent presentation hitting the high points of the new constitution . There were perhaps 20 people in attendance from the 4 units represented at the rally
20 people? Therein lies one aspect that may be problematic and indictative of a passive membership within the organization. Rick can you give us the highlights of those points? Why isn't there more of that kind of dissertation made available to others online? Scattering members is a very successful tool in stopping members from uniting and collective bargaining. Where is the WBCCI forum and representation for the mere member? And now we are asked to vote away delegates because...???

Boondocker I am going to put my thinking hat on and read your other thread's post. I appreciate your energy and posting. Examination I think is key to change and review. Speaking openly is also a necessary component of change. Thank you. I also agree there are many stiff necked youth and many agreeable older people the stereotyping just doesn't ring true.
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 07:17 PM   #29
3 Rivet Member
 
DougZ's Avatar
 
1972 27' Overlander
Venice , Florida
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 180
I also don't have a dog in this fight - I'm not a member and probably never will be. One observation I do have though is that the current system isn't working. If left unchanged I would say your club is going down the crapper. If there is ANY chance that the new constitution will help the club prosper, I would say go for it. Good luck guys!
__________________
TAC FL-1
W4JDZ
DougZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 10:02 PM   #30
4 Rivet Member
 
Zigidachs's Avatar
 
2017 23' International
Ridgefield , Washington
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 297
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondocker View Post
Open minded and neutral aren't the same thing; at the end of the day not taking a side can be far more harmful than not. Not acting in one form or another is in effect an endorsement of what is happening.

I do agree that age, per se, is not the problem. I suspect that CS Lewis got it right when he suggested that the desire to be a part of the inner ring and the impulse to defend that position is a major driver of bad behavior. This is quite independent of age.

I posted his talk on this topic in another thread. It takes a few minutes to read, but I think illuminates how people starting off with the best of motives, over time, become defenders of the indefensible.
Superb piece!!!! Erudite and poignant!

This dissertation evokes memories of our favorite parenting concepts. Simply stated: "treat everyone you meet as someone special and try to brighten their day, because everyone has an unrecognized internal struggle".

Our "circles" should be inclusive, not exclusive. Thank you, Boondocker......Zigi
Zigidachs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 05:31 AM   #31
Silver Mist
 
LI Pets's Avatar
 
1977 31' Sovereign
Riverhead , New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,008
Images: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Roberts Rules only apply to meetings, and the only business that can be conducted at such meetings is through the process of motions, debate, and voting, that is the deliberative process. Anything that takes place outside of such a meeting has absolutely nothing to do with Roberts Rules!
The core subject deals with meetings, there are many other sections that do not..



Quote:
The Members Caucus for instance is just a seminar, and will not deliberate because it does not do "business." There will be no motions, debate, and subsequent vote. So, Roberts Rules are not necessary and shouldn't even be used in that setting.
Quote:


Likewise, Direct Voting and the proposed amendment process do not take place in a meeting. Without a meeting there is no use for Roberts Rules.



Practically, the member caucus would be held at the International Rally. The rally is not mandated by the revised Constitution, the Membersí Caucus is.

The Membersí Caucus is an important part of the governing process. It is here where procedures are discussed and opinions and points of view are shared before members cast their votes.

It would be streamed and the strengths and weakness debated for any member with a computer to hear.

The importance of this meeting justifies it's inclusion in the Constitution.

Members would need to attend the meeting to enter into the discussion. There have been many suggestions that the International Rally needs more flexibility in setting dates and some question whether it should be held annually. While we would expect that the Caucus would normally be held at the Rally, what if a Rally is not held or is cancelled? This provision would give the Club the flexibility to schedule another venue for a Membersí Caucus.

On July 5th, the major business would typically be the Budget. The meeting on July 5th has never been well attended by the membership. There are usually less than 10 members present other than those that have to be there because of their office.

This move disconnects the International Rally from July 1-5. The Budget must be approved at the beginning of the fiscal year.

The committee strongly feels that only by having a direct vote can we assure every member can have a voice.


The weakness of the Delegate system was that a delegate was free to represent their Unitís or their personal views. It was clear from the actual vote that some personal views often won out.

The current delegate system is being replaced by both direct member voting and the Membersí Caucus. They are fully linked.


Direct member voting obviates the role of the delegate and we want to retain a deliberative forum through the Caucus.



Art
16

Sec. 1
There shall be an AnnualMembersí Caucus scheduled during the summer months or at a scheduled International Rally, if needed, to discuss proposed amendments to the Standard of Conduct or Constitution and other agenda items. Discussions at the Annual Membersí Caucus shall serve to inform members and the originators of proposed amendments about concerns, possible modifications and benefits of the proposal before a direct vote by members takes place.

Sec. 2
All WBCCI members mayattend and participate in the Annual Membersí Caucus.

Sec. 3
Headquarters will prepare theAnnual Membersí Caucus agenda which will include any proposed amendments to the Standard of Conduct or Constitution submitted in accordance with Article XVII, or any item proposed for discussion by the International President, the Executive Committee, the IBT, an Area or Unit. The agenda will be published in The Blue Beret and on the WBCCI website at least thirty (30) days prior to the Annual Membersí Caucus.

Sec. 4
The International Presidentshall preside at the Annual Membersí caucus.




.
__________________
Bob
'77 Sovereign Intl 31' CB
WBCCI R2 Rep VAC 11411 Metro NY VP

LI Pets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 08:27 AM   #32
Rivet Master
 
hampstead38's Avatar
 
1967 26' Overlander
Upperco , Maryland
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,104
Blog Entries: 22
The real issue is not chronological, but cultural. Sure, there are people in positions of power who defend the status quo because of a vested interest. Given the infinite human ability to rationalize any behavior, however, I am confident they see themselves as the "true defenders of the Faith" rather than convenient beneficiaries. All that aside, the WBCCI is slowly dying because its culture does not resonate with many potential members.

You can't fix a cultural problem by changing a constitution or bylaws. Most cultural wars are fought by vocal minorities... and they take decades to resolve. On one level, the WBCC is stuck. They can't change without losing "old guard" members and if they don't change, they can't attract enough "new guard" members. This is why pushing the organization to the unit level is the only long-term answer. The WBCCI could survive as a confederation of diverse units, but it will not surive as a empire.
hampstead38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 08:35 PM   #33
Rivet Master
 
Shacksman's Avatar
 
1960 28' Ambassador
Vintage Kin Owner
1998 25' Safari
Avonton , Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
Quote:
Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post

You can't fix a cultural problem by changing a constitution or bylaws. Most cultural wars are fought by vocal minorities... and they take decades to resolve. On one level, the WBCC is stuck. They can't change without losing "old guard" members and if they don't change, they can't attract enough "new guard" members. This is why pushing the organization to the unit level is the only long-term answer. The WBCCI could survive as a confederation of diverse units, but it will not surive as a empire.
Finally something that makes sense. I bet there aren't 20 people in the WBCCI that knows anything about the constitution, or cares to know. I was a Unit Pres. and never looked at it. All the paper in the world won't fix the club, it will have to come from people that care and do the right thing with out being pushed by rules.
__________________
Doug & Terry
VAC - TAC ON-1
60 Ambassador Int.
1950 Spartan
1966 Globetrotter
Shacksman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 08:53 PM   #34
Rivet Master
 
rideair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,313
My I ask a simple question about this "Member Caucus"?

I see in the "New Constitution" where the IBT President will "preside" over the "Annual Members Caucus Meeting".

Who gets to "schedule" the bloody thing? Just because you have the "authority" to "preside" over a meeting does not give you the authority to "schedule" a meeting. Two very different things. Oh, I guess we forgot that part. And you wonder why Don S. is not for this. The things does not even give the members the "authority" to schedule their own meeting or say by who in the "Member Caucus" that does.

I'm sure this is just one more thing that needs to be added to "change list"!

Just a "naysayer" that's all.
__________________
Paul Waddell
rideair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2011, 07:10 AM   #35
Silver Mist
 
LI Pets's Avatar
 
1977 31' Sovereign
Riverhead , New York
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,008
Images: 28
Don't you think a "schedule" issue would be in the bylaws?

Paul you're more than welcome to ask any questions directly to ALL the Revision committee members.

at WbcciRevision@Gmail.com

But you have not asked one question to date.




Hey the nice part is the answers can be posted here.


.
__________________
Bob
'77 Sovereign Intl 31' CB
WBCCI R2 Rep VAC 11411 Metro NY VP

LI Pets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2011, 08:03 AM   #36
Rivet Master
 
rideair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,313
I'm sorry,

I should have known the Revision Committee had already thought of this issue.

Sounds GREAT, you guys/ladies keep up the good work!

But I think "Shacksman" maybe onto something:

"All the paper in the world won't fix the club, it will have to come from people that care and do the right thing with out being pushed by rules."
__________________
Paul Waddell
rideair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2011, 10:20 AM   #37
4 Rivet Member
 
deauxrite's Avatar
 
2007 27' Safari FB SE
Full Timers just passing through , Arizona for a couple of weeks and then on to Utah!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 325
Wow. Neat thread. It really makes me want to go out and join the club. NOT!

I love my Airstream. It is my second one. I love to camp with and without company and do not have trouble finding like minded people with and without Airstreams to camp with. So, with that in mind and having just finished reading this thread...why in the world would I even think of joining a club that has been in decline for 30 years and sounds as complicated and bureaucratic as the WBCCI?

Sorry, but it sounds to me like the club is doomed. Lets go camping and have fun.
__________________
Living life on the Road
deauxrite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2011, 11:46 AM   #38
Rivet Master
 
mbmbstreamer's Avatar
 
2006 25' Safari SS SE
1969 27' Overlander
Martinez , Georgia
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 734
We had 3 Information sessions during our recent rally. I presented a summary of the revision and of the proposed Amendment. We had approximately 50 to 60 members in the meetings. In our Business meeting, 48 of 317 (15%) Units were represented and the vote was unanimous.

Our delegate was instructed to vote on changes as he understands the memberships' wishes. Those include:

1. Keep unit / delegate voting. If MALs vote individually or send a delegate, that is ok too.

2. Eliminate the Nominating Committee Recommendation. Report out ALL qualified candidates.

3. Demonstrate how the changes will cut costs.

4. Share draft Bylaws with the Delegates BEFORE the vote. If necessary, table the revision until the Bylaws can be reviewed by the delegates.


I would like to hear feedback from other units membership!
__________________
Matt
WBCCI # 3518
TAC# GA-6
mbmbstreamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2011, 04:15 PM   #39
Rivet Master
 
Southwestern , Ohio
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbmbstreamer View Post
Our delegate was instructed to vote on changes as he understands the memberships' wishes. Those include:

1. Keep unit / delegate voting. If MALs vote individually or send a delegate, that is ok too.

2. Eliminate the Nominating Committee Recommendation. Report out ALL qualified candidates.

3. Demonstrate how the changes will cut costs.

4. Share draft Bylaws with the Delegates BEFORE the vote. If necessary, table the revision until the Bylaws can be reviewed by the delegates.
Just for clarification, are you saying that your delegate will vote NO on the final vote (to adopt or not adopt the revised constitution) if these conditions are not met? Or is he free to vote however he thinks best?
.
Nuvite-F is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2011, 05:53 PM   #40
Rivet Master
 
mbmbstreamer's Avatar
 
2006 25' Safari SS SE
1969 27' Overlander
Martinez , Georgia
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 734
Actually the vote would be FOR the perfected document that contains 3 of the 4.
__________________

__________________
Matt
WBCCI # 3518
TAC# GA-6
mbmbstreamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
wbcci


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2011 WBCCI Membership Directory Totals streamer23 WBCCI Forum 28 09-06-2012 07:20 AM
WBCCI Feb. Presidents message RickDavis WBCCI Forum 83 04-04-2011 01:52 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
×